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Originally Posted by StuartK
The contest between Cyprian and Stephen had to do with the rebaptism of the lapsed and of heretics. Earlier, the issue was rebaptism--or rather, multiple baptisms--as a means of remitting current sins. Note that St. Basil accepted the baptism of the Novatians as a matter of oikonomia: it would not be practical to track down and rebaptize all those who had been baptized by Novatius and his followers.
Which says absolutely nothing about the First Council of Constantinople. Was the question of re-baptism addressed at this council? Did the council fathers intend to dogmatize on the question? I'd like to see documentation on this please. Sorry, Stuart, I just can't take your word on this.

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When the Cappodocians and Athanasius speak of an inherited fallen state, it does not necessarily mean (indeed, it does not!) the same thing as when Tertullian or Augustine speaks of an inherited state of sin. The consensus of the Greek Fathers, at least, was the fallen state was one of mortality.
This may be true historically, but it hardly closes the theological discussion. I for one find the reduction of original sin to mortality to be unsatisfactory at several levels. I certainly do not deny that fear of death leads human beings to turn away from God toward the self, but I also note that Satan and the fallen angels fell away from God not because of fear of death but because of the desire to be independent of God. Pride and the desire for autonomy--here, it seems to me, is the essence of our sin; here, it seems to me, is the essence of Adam's sin.

The Latin intuition is that we are born into a state of alienation from God. This state is not intended by God but it is the way things are. The Council of Trent referred to this state as "the death of the soul." Here, I suggest, is where the East/West conversation should begin. Consider, for example, this passage from St Gregory Palamas:

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As the separation of the soul from the body is the death of the body, so the separation of God from the soul is the death of the soul. And this death of the soul is the true death. This is made clear by the commandment given in paradise, when God said to Adam, `On whatever day you eat from the forbidden tree you will certainly die.' And it was indeed Adam's soul that died by becoming through his transgression separated from God; for bodily he continued to live after that time, even for nine hundred and thirty years. The death, however, that befell the soul because of the transgression not only crippled the soul and made man accursed; it also rendered the body itself subject to fatigue, suffering and corruptibility, and finally handed it over to death. For it was after the dying of his inner self brought about by the transgression that the earthly Adam heard the words, `Earth will be cursed because of what you do, it will produce thorns and thistles for you.' … Thus the violation of God's commandment is the cause of all types of death, both of soul and body, whether in the present life or in that endless chastisement. And death, properly speaking, is this: for the soul to be unharnessed from divine grace and to be yoked to sin. This death, for those who have their wits, is truly dreadful and something to be avoided. This, for those who think aright, is more terrible than the chastisement of Gehenna. … As the death of the soul is authentic death, so the life of the soul is authentic life. Life of the soul is union with God, as life of the body is union with the soul. As the soul was separated from God and died in consequence of the violation of the commandment, so by obedience to the commandment it is again united to God and is quickened. … The death of the soul through transgression and sin, is then, followed by the death of the body and by its dissolution in the earth and its conversion into dust; and this bodily death is followed in its turn by the soul's banishment to Hades. … After our forefather's transgression in paradise through the tree, we suffered the death of our soul--which is the separation of the soul from God--prior to our bodily death; yet although we cast away our divine likeness, we did not lose our divine image.

("Topics on Natural and Theological Science", Chapters 9-14, Philokalia 4:296-297, 363)
Now compare this passage to the presentation on original sin found in the Catholic Catechism [scborromeo.org]. Is the chasm so large? Does a chasm exist at all?

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Dearest Father Kimel,

Originally Posted by Fr_Kimel
Originally Posted by StuartK
The contest between Cyprian and Stephen had to do with the rebaptism of the lapsed and of heretics. Earlier, the issue was rebaptism--or rather, multiple baptisms--as a means of remitting current sins. Note that St. Basil accepted the baptism of the Novatians as a matter of oikonomia: it would not be practical to track down and rebaptize all those who had been baptized by Novatius and his followers.
Which says absolutely nothing about the First Council of Constantinople. Was the question of re-baptism addressed at this council? Did the council fathers intend to dogmatize on the question? I'd like to see documentation on this please. Sorry, Stuart, I just can't take your word on this.
Canon VII speaks of it. I know full well that the Latin Church does not accept Canon VII as a genuine part of the Council, but Easterns do.

Humbly,
Marduk

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Dear brother Stuart,

Originally Posted by StuartK
The contest between Cyprian and Stephen had to do with the rebaptism of the lapsed and of heretics. Earlier, the issue was rebaptism--or rather, multiple baptisms--as a means of remitting current sins. Note that St. Basil accepted the baptism of the Novatians as a matter of oikonomia: it would not be practical to track down and rebaptize all those who had been baptized by Novatius and his followers.
And St. Basil mentions that there are those who don't rebaptize the Novatians. He states that the practice is diffrent in different regious. I imagine the Second Ecum wanted to settle the matter.

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When the Cappodocians and Athanasius speak of an inherited fallen state, it does not necessarily mean (indeed, it does not!) the same thing as when Tertullian or Augustine speaks of an inherited state of sin. The consensus of the Greek Fathers, at least, was the fallen state was one of mortality.
"State of sin" in the Latin Tradition is nothing more than spiritual death or separation from God. I am foggy on my Cappadocians, but you can bet that st. Athanasius taught as the Latins did - that Original Sin is spiritual death/separation from God.

Blessings

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