www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Fr. Gabriel Bunge (OSB) has been received into Holy Orthodoxy

Lost in all of this, unless I'm missing somewhere in the 14 pages, is the fact that Fr. Gabriel was received AFAIK by vesting and a profession of faith. I think there is something significant in that.

"We definitely "submit to the authority we recognize." My issue with what has been put forth in past threads as what I would characterize as the Cyprianic-economia theory is how it works out in practice. Using the case of the Catholic priest being received by vesting: let's say an RC priest and his twin layman brother, both having been baptized Catholic, same time, same priest baptizing, yet the priest-brother is received by vesting, but the layman-brother is received by baptism/chrismation. What does this practice say about the necessity of baptism and that it can only be done once and it is sacrilegious to try to repeat it? So theory is fine and may be readily stated but the proof in many cases is in the practice and results or ramifications of the practice."

I will attempt to answer your misgivings as to the consistency but of course it is a pastoral concern and is to be decided by the Bishop. in your scenario both brothers have received the Grace of Baptism. Let me explain what I mean. No Orthodox church that I know of accepts that there are sacraments outside of the Orthodox Church ( though I have heard others disagree...I can only think that they are misinformed)The OC would not recognize either baptism as being Grace filled, only through economia at the teaching of St Basil would the Church be willing to accept the form of the sacrament. Since it has the form but not the Grace Chrismation will fill the previously empty form. If however, it is determined that Economia will not be used then both brothers would be baptized (not rebaptized), chrismated, etc. If they go to the same priest they will be treated the same.If the one is received one way so will the other as long as it is under the same Hierarch. Since we have a canonical abnormality here with overlapping jurisdictions it may seem inconsistent but it is not. There are many who feel that due to relatavism and false ecumensim (as opposed to genuine ecumenism) that it may be better to accept all converts through Baptism however, that is something the Bishops will decide. Thankfully this is on the list for the North American Episcopal Assembly. They may end up picking one way or respecting the Hierarch's decisions.
Hope this clarifies.

So in the Catholic and Oriental churches there is no baptism, chrismation, eucharist etc.? For instance, the bread and wine a Catholic receives as communion is just bread and wine?

So economia accomplishes what actual baptism should have? And it can also effect ordination (and simultaneous baptism and chrismation?) for the brother who is received by vesting?

Does the baptism and "not rebaptized" imply or denote that they were not Christians?

If the "priest" brother is received by vesting the lay brother cannot be received the same way.

They needn't be overlapping; how about just adjacent, or whatever, since it is based on the policy of the bishop?

Again then, is it fair to conclude that (all) converts, since they are (properly, according to best practice) being baptized, are not considered to have been Christians?

According to our oriental friends, when the the "conversion" is from Catholic to orthodox it is perfectly ok and celebrated with great fast, while when the "conversion" is in the other sense it is simply a "horrible proselytism".

I too some time ago was thinking to pass to the Orthodox, but then I realized of how much "intellectual proud" is there, and I preferred to remain with the imperfect, but humble, Catholics

And there is no "intellectual pride" among Catholics?

Never met a Jesuit, I imagine.

I think the Ruthenian Monks in Miami were also received by vesting into the OCA.

Not that I want to reopen that can of worms, but how are those monks doing, these days? Is the monastery still open, and if so, are they attracting novices?

Not in Miami any more.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Protection_of_the_Theotokos_Monastery_%28Weaverville,_North_Carolina%29

Jim

They seem to be doing well. It's funny how they fudge their uniate origins on their web site. The Ruthenians' loss is the OCA's gain. Thanks, Bishop Andrew!

Lost in all of this, unless I'm missing somewhere in the 14 pages, is the fact that Fr. Gabriel was received AFAIK by vesting and a profession of faith. I think there is something significant in that.

So what, why is it so important for Catholics to have the schismatics "approve" the validity or legitimacy of the holy mysteries?

They are the ones who long ago made their exit from the Church and use the sacraments ilegitimately.

That's a good point. I will have to think about that as I have myself just returned from our weekly sacramental misuse session.

Garbage! That is about as nice of a response as I can come up with to this trash. If I were to write what I actually wish to write, I would likely be suspended, if not banned,

I don't know. You seem to be a schismatic type, why don't you tell us?

Mexican,

Might I suggest that you familiarize yourself with some of the Teachings of the Catholic Church? You do great damage to the Church when you present non-Catholic Teachings as Catholic. There is plenty to study and you can find it easily but for now I will quote only one source:

Pope John Paul II emphasized this in his letter "Ut unum sint"(end of section 12) with: "The Council's Decree on Ecumenism, referring to the Orthodox Churches, went so far as to declare that "through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature". Truth demands that all this be recognized."

As an individual you may accept or reject the Teachings of the Catholic Church (or whatever church you might choose to join). But you may not post things regarding the Teaching of the Catholic Church (or any church) that are false. ¿Usted entiende?

Admin