www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do Antiochian Orthodox in America use Russian Chant?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I attended a local Antiochian Orthodox church today, I have attended their Akathist and Holy Friday services before, but not a Divine Liturgy. I was surprised that the (mostly female) choir of the church did not sing in the Greek Byzantine Chant style, but the clergy and readers did (in Arabic and English).

The choir sang in what sounded like a Russian or Slavic style chant throughout the entire service. The octave that the choir was singing in seemed too high and they never sang in Arabic. In my opinion, this discouraged the parishioners from singing as well. I have seen videos of other Antiochian Orthodox choirs that do this in America.

This is new to me because when I see Orthodox services on Lebanese stations, it is completely in Byzantine chant. The Melkite Catholic church I attend do their liturgies and services completely in Byzantine chant and encourages the parishioners to sing/chant along.

Is this a common occurence?

In parishes of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, English is really the liturgical language. Russian chant sung by choirs is very common for the Liturgy. Chanters mainly sing at Orthros and Vespers. One hears more Arabic during Orthros, but English is still the primary language. It is during Vespers and Orthros that Byzantine chant is used almost exclusively.

Fr David Straut

This is, unfortunately, an all too common problem with female singers who are supposed to be leading song. It very quickly leads to a silent congregation. In some caes, she even has a wonderful voice, but that just isn't the point (and in my experience in Roman churches, rarely as impressive as she thinks it is).

I'm under the impression a wide variety of harmonized Byzantine chant written in western notation was/is used in the archdiocese from different sources. Here's an example mp3 from an AOA parish in Pennsylvania.

http://www.st-philip.net/audio/As_Many_of_You.mp3

I've seen similar at most of the Greek Orthodox churches I've been too in the US. [apologies, I've never been to a non-Greek Orthodox church!]

During Orthros they'll use Byzantine Chant, more or less the way it'd be done in Greece with (usually 2-4) chanters and Byzantine Chant. But for Divine Liturgy they'll be a much larger choir, which uses all kinds of 4 part choral music, either of Russian origin or written from one of the the late 1800s/early 1900s Greek musical reformers [sometimes along with organ music]. The impression one draws from other facts (recruitment drives from the pulpit, practice sessions during Orthros) gives one the impression that the choir is a much bigger deal in terms of parish effort. This done by two distinct groups of people, sometimes with no overlap.

I've personally don't understand the pastoral rationale behind this: it seems to reinforce the idea that the "real" church service is the Liturgy and Vespers/Orthros are just for the church fanatics.

And as an aside, while Byzantine Chant can allow lots of room for congregational singing in the right places, if it's not selected right it can be just as unparticipative as any other form of music.


Hah! Isn't that the truth.

IMO, the church musician has to accept, and be able to properly deal with, the possibility that his/her singing ability is not really that great. Or that it won't be in a few years (especially if they don't know what they're doing and ruin it).

Markos

[Chaldobyzantine: I'm curious which Melkite Church you attend. Would you mind PMing me? I'd PM you but you still have a new memeber's tiny PM quota]

I still don't know why I can't PM or view profiles but it's ok lol. I attend Our Lady of Redemption in Warren, MI. I love this church, but the name should be changed to Dormition of the Theotokos

olormelkite.org

Isn't the fact that some Antiochian and Greek Orthodox parish choirs use Russian chant during the liturgy going against their original traditions? I don't mind if the entire liturgy were in English, but IMHO beautiful Byzantine chant shouldn't be abandoned by the churches that made it.

chaldobyzantine:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

We have a forum policy whereby we place new members on a trial basis for awhile. It helps us stop new people coming in and causing havoc. Please be patient. We've had some major trouble in the past and have become cautious as a result. You also may lack some of the editing tools available. Again, please be patient.

In Christ,

Bob
Moderator

Cool. If I'm even in MI, I'll come on by......

Chant is not choral music.

I think that the presence of Russian choral music in the Divine Liturgy of Antiochian Orthodox churches in America can be traced to a few reasons:

(a) The Arabic-speaking Orthodox were under the Russian Archdiocese in America in their early years.

(b) There was (is) a current of thought that it is easier to adapt English Language liturgical texts to Russian music rather than the Byzantine. The Antiochians in America have always been in the forefront those who promote the use of English in Orthodox services.

(c) Members of choirs themselves often prefer to sing polyphonic music rather than Byzantine melodies with an ison. Russian music sounds good with multiple parts. Byzantine music is not authentic when polyphony is imposed upon it.

(d) There was (is) a current of thought that Russian music is more appealing to the western ear Byzantine. Those who want to "make America Orthodox" think converts will be more attracted by Russian music.

Fr David Straut

Glory to Jesus Christ!


I have not heard Russian music of the Divine Liturgy but I LOVE the Byzantine chant we use in my Melkite parish. Wouldn't change it for the world

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

I'm ecumenical--I find all forms of Orthodox chant beautiful--but think that particular Churches should try to dance with the one what brought them. So, Greek Churches should stick with Byzantine Chant, Russian Churches with Russian chant, Rusyn Churches with Prostopinje, Bulgarian Churches with Bulgarian chant, Romanian chant, etc., etc. That said, Byzantine chant is difficult for the western ear, and more difficult to learn than most of the composed choral music of the Russian and Ukrainian Churches, so inexperienced cantor and choir directors, struggling to hold a Liturgy together, often go with what they think they--and the congregation can handle.

It goes without saying, of course, that it would be nice if the Roman Church exclusively used Roman or Gregorian chant, the Milanese Church Ambrosian chant, and so forth, instead of the operatic claptrap so many traditionalists think is great liturgical music, or the pop drivel preferred by so many of the progressives.

I think Fr. David gave a good explanation on this, but I will add a little more. In my experience many of the people who form the choirs in the AOA came either from other Orthodox jurisdictions (with a mix of musical traditions and backgrounds) or from outside Orthodoxy itself (and actually sometimes both). So the original traditions at the parish level may not be the ones that were brought here from Syria and Lebanon by the original immigrants that formed the archdiocese.

I think most people would say, and I would agree with them, that it is not the purity or style of the music is not important; it's important that people understand what is being sung. I know attempts have been made in the AOA to translate, and at the same time harmonize, Byzantine chant in to English. The attempts based on what I've heard have not been particularly good. I have also heard Byzantine chant in the GOA carried with an ison, non harmonized, in English and I must say I'm not particularly crazy about it.

I think choir directors are probably pulling what they can from various sources to sound the best they can.

I would rather myself hear a good choir over a bad chanter.

I am also not really convinced that congregational participation in the singing or chanting is really all that important. Maybe better yet, I'll just say for me that isn't a big part of my experience.

The Polyphony vs. Byzantine Chant discussion in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese is an ongoing one that has lacked consistency.

The "Official" Liturgy that has been used at Parish Life Conferences is Polyphony. Part of what Batushka David said is correct. There are historical reasons and we must remember that under Saint Archbishop Tikhon (Bellavin) and his Auxiliary Bishop Saint Raphael(Hawaweeney), what are today the OCA, Antiochian Archdiocese and ROCOR were all the same jurisdiction under the Holy Synod of Russia (before the reestablishment of the Moscow Patriarchate). They were very concerned about the diversity of North American Orthodoxy and very sensitive to it. Those two servants of Christ never wanted the North American Church to fragment into ethnic-jurisdictionalism.

However, at the Antiochian Village, the Liturgy is in Byzantine Chant (as the Antiochian House of Studies students in the Forum so well know). The Youth become very energized by the camping experience, and the AHOS theological students sound tremendous. But it so is hard to bring that energy back to the parishes where quite frankly, choir members don't like Byzantine Chant and get reinforced by the organizations in the Parish Life Conferences, where Bortniansky and four part Polyphony still may very much prevail.

The Boston Byzantine Choir and Abouna's Angels from Toronto have wonderful CDs in Byzantine Chant (if you can find them). In the Balkans there is beautiful Byzantine Chant not only in the monasteries, but also in the convents. There is even a neo-Byzantine movement in places in Russia. Conversely, we have people here in North America studying to be Choir Directors (and humming the four parts to the sopranos, altos, tenors and basses). This perpetuates the Polyphony infrastructure of parish choirs.

So, go figure?!?

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!