www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda?

Are babies born with original sin?

Yes, all are born into the state if original sin.

No.

Define your terms.

You'll have to speak to me in a language I understand. I don't speak CCC, and refuse to learn how.

No.

Bob,

Yes, all are born into the state if original sin. You shoul read the ITC document as it addresses all of these Church documents. I think it is worthwhile reading.

... I happen to agree that Limbo was bad doctrine, but its roots go deeper than the ICT documents admits. I believe that the Limbo is based on defined doctrines at the Second Council of Lyons, and the Council of Florence. If one accepts these definitions that Limbo is inevitable...

One can hardly blame for having thought Limbo was dogma, since it was taught at the Council of Florence.

Medieval theologians described the underworld ("hell", "hades", "infernum") as divided into four distinct parts: hell of the damned (which some call Gehenna), Purgatory, limbo of the fathers, and limbo of infants.

You can dismiss it if you want as equivocation,

As to the details (with references) of who said what, how, and when, and what it means, I recommend this pdf: Point/Counterpoint: Is Limbo a Catholic Doctrine? [catholicintl.com]

Thanks for bringing Bob Sungenis into this discussion. Here is his pdf on the recent Catholic vs. Protestant debate on the Immaculate Conception - notice what he says about the Patristic witness for the doctrine:

http://www.catholicintl.com/articles/FerraraWhite_Debate_on_Immaculate_Conception.pdf

As for the patristic evidence for the Immaculate Conception, all that the Catholic Church needs is one witness to show that the concept or doctrine existed during that time period. That’s not a hard task. Dr. White’s favorite Father, Athanasius, gives a strong indication he believed Mary to be without sin. He writes: “He took it [his
body] from a pure and unstained Virgin, who had not known man" (On the Incarnation of the Word, 8). Of course, Dr. White will argue that “pure and unstained” does not teach specifically that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, and he would be correct, but we don’t need to have it explicitly stated in order to conclude that Athanasius believed Mary to be without sin; and once we see that Athanasius regarded Mary as without sin, then we only need to use our reason to work backward to Mary’s conception and see the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. To even begin to refute this, Dr. White would have to show that it would be impossible for Athanasius to have believed that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, a formidable task indeed considering that he already accepted that she was sinless. Moreover, there are many other Fathers who made similar remarks about Mary. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit to discern and evaluate these various statements, then makes its judgment on their value.