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Dear fellows in Christ,

May I just ask your opinion about certain Catholic Communities who are charismatic.

Are you first of all aware that there is a Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church?

Secondly, what do you think about it? Have you witnessed it?

To be precise, when I say "charismatic", I am referring to the spirituality in prayer that goes on.

a) Speaking in tongues
b) Dancing around the altar
c) Crying hysterically and then laughing
d) Slain in the Spirit. (People falling over)

This isnt a small, tiny, little group of hyped up protestants who have become Catholic. This is literally the most common form of prayer I've seen in the Catholic Church in certain parts of Europe.

At first, I didn't mind it. I mean, I thought to myself - well.. this isn't my church 1st of all, so I can't complain; and I didnt judge them.

But then something occurred that baffled me and made me distance myself from all this.

Is it from the Holy Spirit to speak in Jibberish??
Does the Holy Spirit make you talk nonsense?? Who understands these jibberish words anyway?

For us, the talking in tongues was to edify the Church. It was a REAL language.

I was thinking - if the Orthodox Church doesn't recognise this talking in Jibberish as a gift of the Holy Spirit, then what exactly is going on in the Catholic Church?

Then things became even worse. The prayer group I attended, and in fact, most of them, do this thing called "Slain in Spirit". They lay their hands on someone and that person falls down.

(This is in the Roman Catholic Church)

Now - does that mean that the Holy Spirit has graced someone? What is the effect of that? Is it like Baptism? Because, as far as I can understand, we are saved through Baptism and Confirmation. That saves us. It is the most essential of sacraments to save us.

In Baptism, we receive forgiveness for our sins, we are born again and we rise as a new man.

In confirmation, we are confirmed as Children of God. The Holy Spirit lives in us.

Both of these sacraments require a priest.

If we start having all these Charismatic rituals in our Church (like the Evangelicals or Pentecostals) surely, we are saying that our own priesthood is pointless. We are we now a Church of sacraments? What is the use of a priest? Why, to be saved, I just need someone who can throw the Holy Spirit around and knock me over with Him.

Remarkable!

Are you aware of this?

Here is a VERY small list of the communities pushing this:

a) Beatitude - Hard core - knock you over in a minute community
b) Emmanuel - mild charismas.. praying in tongues.
c) Saint John - Mass hysteria, you name it, they do it.

I remember once, I went to Church (RC) and it was quiet. I love that. I was praying there for a while, when these people came and started praying also. Everything was fine until they started talking in "tongues"

"shalalla. .llaaa aaargghh.. "

its the sort of noise that your cat might make if you don't give it milk.. u know?

Anyway, I couldnt concentrate nor understand a word of it, I was praying that they just shut up.

lol

hahahah

But how do you feel about this?? What IS it?

have I misunderstood something, or are these people genuinely a few raisons short of a fruit-cake?

Let me remind you also of the video I posted showing people dancing around the altar in Notre Dame - Paris. Its scary stuff.

Thanos:

Christ is in our midst!!

You might get a jump start on some of the members' opinions by doing a search of past threads. We had a good discussion on this very topic in the past year.

Have to run.

Bob

By baptism we become part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Anyway, you have answered yourself. When the Apostles had gift of the tongues, people understood them. It served a purpose. What purpose does talking in Jibberish serve? Why would the Holy Spirit be necessary to do that?

My acquaintance once asked in private a priest what's that, because she entered the church when the charismatics were doing their mysteries inside and she was so scared that she wanted to flee away. He replied that what they do is 90% autosuggestion, 9% simulation, 1% possession, and she's not the first person that had shared similar concerns with him.

(I may have confused the exact numbers, but it's not that important.)

Thanos:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

The Orthodox understanding of this "speaking in tongues" is that the Apostles SPOKE in their own tongue and that everyone around them UNDERSTOOD them in their own tongue. In other words, the Holy Spirit got into the communication stream between speaker and hearer and made the communication possible--something that would not ordinarily have happened.

The jibberish speaking in tongues has been called possession in various evaluations about what is actually happening. That it is defended shows that there is still a big amount of controversary about it. How the Holy Spirit is present across communities that are not in communion is another matter that complicates this, especially when people get the idea that there is no real difference when everyone is doing this same sort of thing.

In Christ,

Bob

I can only speak for myself but I do not for one minute believe an essentially Protestant spirituality can fruitfully be brought into the Catholic Church.

Ever since my 1st. exposure to the "Catholic" charismatic movement I have experienced nothing less than revulsion. Everything in me said, "no way this can be reconciled with Catholicism". I am as convinced of that as ever (Lord have mercy on me if I'm wrong...no, Lord; just have mercy on me, even if I'm right!)

Many Catholics who used to be involved in the outlandish behaviors mentioned have given all that stuff up and have rediscovered authentic pious practices, as well as a fresher, deeper appreciation for liturgical prayer.

But, alas! not every Catholic turned out that way. Some of them left the Catholic Church and joined "holy roller" sects.

I hope they'll come back and leave all that characteristically pentecostalist stuff behind.

sielos:

Christ is in our midst!!

Remember what Our Lord told us about being angry but not letting our anger lead us to sin.

There have been more than a few people who seem to me to be bored with the time tested and time honored ways that the Fathers and the Saints have shown us as the narrow way. Perhaps that is what they are drawn to what the Divine Liturgy calls "glittering heresies." I don't know if this movement qualifies, but it seems to hold a certain "glitter" for so many. Praying the prayers in the Byzantine prayerbook morning and evening--common in similar forms to both Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics--can become dull and routine. It's precisely in the dry state of spirituality that things like this come along and seem to promise a return to the initial newness of either conversion or one's adult faith "kicking in."

But prayer and living out the Christian life is like a love affair. New marriage or a new love is a thrill. After a time, however, the real work begins. That's when things demand that one "dig in" for the long haul. That's when, as Fr. Ambrose of Optina says, "The Kingdom of Heaven is taken by storm." In other words, it takes grit and grace; it takes perseverence; it takes every ounce of what one has--that's how Our Lord finds out if we're made of gold or just some base metal that dissolves in the fire of trial.

I pray for each and every person that the Lord will give them what He knows they need. God forbid they become like me. May they become like the saints who trod the sure path lead by the Holy Spirit--the path of the true Faith.

Don't be angry, just be thankful that you have been given the gifts you have, pray for those who have fallen into things that seem outside the sure path, and keep your focus on Christ at all times--in all of this cling like a barnacle to your spiritual father and confessor.


In Christ,

Bob

Thanos:

Christ is in our midst!!

Send me an email and I'll send you an article about the history of this movement.

Bob

Grace and peace to you from our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm just asking politely, humbly, how do you feel about this?

I don't really care, ultimately, how someone prays. I mean, Im not part of a secret "prayer" police secret service.

If someone wants to pray with their hands waving in the air, or dancing around the altar, or crying hysterically before an Altar, that's their business.

But I just want to know the following:

a) What is the spiritual efficacy of this? What have they gained?


Allow me to elaborate here. For me, for me personally - nothing nourishes me more than prayer, confession, repentance, and participation of the Holy Sacrament of Communion. Nothing is more beneficial than this. Our entire spiritual life, growth, and welfare is centered around the Holy Eucharist.

In fact, it just so happens that the entire Coptic Orthodox Church sees things the same way as me. Nothing is more than the Holy Sacrament of Communion.

We are all saved by Grace. We receive/engage in these Graces through the sacraments.

So does this mean we are reducing the importance of the sacraments through Charismatic prayer?

Can the Charismatic movement be reconciled with Orthodox Spirituality?

b) The Holy Spirit in Charismatic communities

If we all seem to agree, from the remarks that I've read so far in this forum, that praying in jibberish is not from the Holy Spirit, then aren't such charismas a danger to the worshipper giving them a false sense of holiness or spiritual achievement??

That's another issue I feel is important to discuss:

I cannot help but feel that these manifestations of Charismatic Spirituality are only a means to show others that not only am I saved, but "Im better than you".

Its a typical pentecostal/evangelical attitude - "I am Saved"
"I am better than you".

That I somehow, have attained a level of spirituality superior to you - without engaging in ANY of the sacraments that you have. That the Holy Spirit is working in me, and that I have something now that I didnt have before.

Our resurrection, our entire spirituality as Orthodox Christians is centered on the purification of our hearts, minds, bodies and spirits. That's it. Does any of these Charismas support such spiritual growth?

When we talk about "edification" of oneself, or of the Church - what is edifying is my resurrection from the death of my sins. This is achieved though the CONTINUAL engagement in the Eucharist, Confession, Repentance and prayer; allowing God's Grace to work in our lives, and in our hearts.

So how on EARTH does speaking in jibberish, dancing like a hippie around a Holy Altar help my repentance? Surely, on the contrary it is a distraction to the seriousness involved in seeking the Lord to lead you to repent.

These people argue that they are "so full of joy" that they dance like David the Prophet and King...that they are so full of the Holy Spirit, that they cannot help but speak in tongues.

Is it joy to dance in the Altar? Is this respectful? Men, women, & children jumping around and dancing around the Holy of the Holies? Is this a sign of joy?

Let's see:

I'm just thinking aloud, Im not at all suggesting that they have a false sense of joy, but how can this be joyful? David did not dance in the TENT of the Tabernacle. He danced before it. NOT INSIDE IT!!! In fact, there was a penalty, if I'm not mistaken, for anyone even ENTERING the tent of the tabernacle.

He didn't go in the Tent and start breakdancing. Did he? He didnt grab the tabernacle and start jumping on top of it?

So, if it is joy from the Holy Spirit, why would the Spirit of Joy - the Holy Spirit - lead them to disrespect what is Holy??

The joy I have in being in the Church doesn't lead me to jump in the Altar and start dancing.

This is a more serious issue we have than the Primacy of Saint Peter.

Each of these Charismatic communities has a Senior Bishop or Archbishop at their realm.

So this type of charismatic behaviour appears to me, even more, to not even be from God. It is a distraction. In fact, it seems to be devaluing the essential need of the Sacraments.

c) If you are divided over this, then how can this be from God?

If my spirituality, my dogmas, my theology divides us, then is from God? Could God give a group of people charismas to only be the cause of division in His Holy Church?

A bishop promoting charismatic behaviour and one being against it - can this be from God??

And their charismas - as we've already discussed - HOW are they edifying?? What have you gained when you speak jibberish?? Other than making me laugh a bit, or a few chuckles, how did you gain SPIRITUALLY? Not comically.

How did I gain by hearing Jibberish? How was I edified?

When I'm with them, I pray that they be quiet whilst they are praying in tongues. So EVEN in prayer, we are not united - and this is from God??

d) The Primacy of Saint Peter

Here's the real clincher:

Your Pope is the head of your Church?

With all due respect, what kind of hierarchy/organisation did you wish us to be part of when your Church leaders accept this?

We are not exactly lacking in miracles in our Church to want to resort to "cheap thrill" miracles that amount to nothing other than spiritual showing off.

We're still recovering from the Holy Apparition of Saint Mary in the Zeitun, Egypt that was seen by millions.

You cannot tell me that the Pope is not aware of this happening in his Church.

You see now the issues surrounding unity? Its not really the primacy of Saint Peter. We don't care. We're not Authoritarian minded, nor power hungry to think about "who is better than who". Its a matter of building trust, or re-gaining trust.

My apologies brothers and sisters in Christ, if you found my comments harsh. However, it hurts me deeply to see your Church in this state because I see it being attacked.

Bob, I am fully aware at how this started.

The Emmanuel Community started out with a definition of Charismas that is not what it is today.

To cut a LOONGG story short, your Church ordained, or accepted protestant Charismatic leaders who converted to Catholicism. They came into your Church, like Father Silouane, who promoted his definition and flavour of Charismatic prayer within your Church.

The young Catholics, being young no doubt, were greatly influenced and attracted to such spirituality. No doubt you will find such prayer groups filled mainly with young 15 to 39 year olds.

We are a Church of DISCIPLESHIP.

I ask you: WHERE ON EARTH IS THE DISCIPLESHIP HERE??? Where is the spiritual guidance for these people? And if this is a case of the blind being guided by the blind, then why would you want us to be part of the Catholic community in that case?

Thanks for the good advice. I appreciate all the positive suggestions I can get.
The only problem I see with my post is I hit the wrong icon (the angry one) to initiate it. I'm not really angry at these people but rather perplexed that they seem to be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The outcome to that has been a very mixed bag.
And I do hope the ones who left the Church will return after having been wandering in the desert of non-sacramental Christianity. I hope they return with a hunger for the Bread of Life, thirsting for the Cup of Salvation. And I hope I'll always be hungry and thirsty for it as well.
Thanks again.

Thanos,

We are, I rather suspect, the wrong folk to ask about the charismatic movement. I doubt that you'll find many supporters of it among practicing Eastern Catholics, least likely among those who post here. And, from my best recollection, not likely among those Latins who post here.

We are very much aware that it and other liturgical movements that are focused around praxis which seems contrary to historic/traditional Catholic and Orthodox styles of worship cause our Orthodox brethren to look askance and certainly weigh in the minds of those who wonder how they could be reconciled in any future union of our Churches.

That said, since the vast majority of such are centered in the Latin Church (not that we aren't aware of a couple of Eastern/ Oriental Catholic eparchies that seem to have encouraged these), it is not within the scope or strength of our influence to bring about the necessary change on the part on our larger Sister Church. Such will have to come from within its own ranks and may possibly be influenced by the hierarchy of our Orthodox brethren in the course of dialoguing with Rome. However, on the latter count, I suspect that any such discussion points are well down the agenda - being seen as of much less immediate import than the differences that have separated us for centuries.

Many years,

Neil

Once during a meeting of the World Council of Churches, one of the organizers proposed to Patriarch Athenegoras that the Orthodox be seated near the Lutherans, Anglicans and other "liturgical" churches. His Beatitude responded that perhaps it would be better if they were seated near the Quakers, since the Orthodox put such a high priority on the descent and action of the Holy Spirit.

Which is why we really aren't that interested in the charismatic movement--we have never felt the absence of the Holy Spirit, constantly invoked, constantly working through the Liturgy of the Byzantine-Orthodox Churches.

I just thought I'd add my thoughts simply to give a different perspective. I attended (and am doing my graduate work with) a Roman Catholic university who claims to have a "charismatic" spirituality. Also my wife was baptized and raised in a parish that is 100% dedicated to the charismatic movement; we were married in that parish, and we attended Mass there every Sunday until we moved here to Virginia. I've always had a sort of love-hate relationship with the charismatic movement.

Here's what I think. The movement itself is very good, so long as it follows certain guidelines and stays within Holy Tradition. I have no problem with the gibberish form of "speaking in tongues". Paul himself speaks of this in one of his letters to the Corinthians. He does not speak of the Apostles speaking in their own language and everyone else understanding them in their respective languages. He speaks of the need for an interpreter if someone is prophecying in tongues. He also cautions against praying in tongues when there are guests present who might be scandalized by the "gibberish" and think that everyone is drunk. I know of some modern Biblical scholars who readily admit that the tongues Paul is speaking of are nothing more or less than the tongues that many people hear during charismatic prayer meetings (perhaps todays tongues are simply a modern manifestation of what went on during Paul's time). I've also read of people who had no knowledge of Japanese prophecying in Japanese. There has also been evidence of "dead" languages being spoken during these prayer meetings. I myself knew many people who's "tongue" during praise was Latin. Long story short, while I myself don't pray in tongues, it certainly has edified many people who do, and there are strong Biblical foundations for it.

Resting in the Spirit is something that has always baffled me. It's never happened to me before, and I hope it never does (at least not in the forms that I've seen it). I've been told that it's supposed to be a sign of complete surrender of oneself to the action of the Holy Spirit. Whatever! It's good for some people, not for all. I remember, with a great deal of amusment, one prayer meeting I attended. I was toward the front of the group just so that I could focus in prayer on Christ instead of looking around at everyone. After a particularly intense period of praise I turned to leave for the restroom and saw people lieing all over the floor. It looked like a mob murder scene. It was all I could do to keep from laughing as I made my way to the restroom.

The charismatic renewal has also had the support of Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI. I don't know the documents to quote, but I'm sure there's something on the Vatican's website if you're willing to take the time to do a search (it's not that important to me). However, just because a movement has the approval of a pope, doesn't mean that it's for everyone. Some people have been truly enriched by the charismatic renewal and have been led into deeper levels of contemplation than I can even hope to reach. A good example would be Ralph Martin, a man every bit as influenced by and immersed in Sacred Tradition and the writings of the great Western mystics as he is with the charismatic renewal. Many of the U.S.'s modern scholars and apologists have, in some way, also been influenced by the renewal. The point is, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it outright.

I do, however, disagree with a good deal that goes on. But much of what I disagree with can't really be attributed completely to the charismatic renewal as it can just pure ridiculousness. Here's a list:

1) Dancing around the altar
2) Focus on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, rather than on the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself
3) The notion that everyone must prophecy, speak in tongues, be slain in the Spirit, etc.
4) Guitars, pianos, drums ,etc. and modern praise and worship music at the Mass rather than the traditional music of the Roman Church. That stuff is great for a private prayer meeting (so long as the lyrics to the songs actually have real meaning and aren't just banal repetitions of some catchy phrase), but really is has no place in the Mass. That being said, a lot of charismatic music is much better than anything in the "Glory and Praise" hymnal that plagues the majority of Roman parishes in the U.S.
5) I'm not a big fan of the uncontrolled laughter and crying. That's always seemed out of place to me.

Those are just the things the spring immediately to mind. But there's also a great deal of good that I've seen come from the movement, and that I have personally been enriched by thanks to the movement.

1) Emphasis on Scripture and the Fathers (that's right!)
2) Complete abandonment to God.
3) Emphasis on love of God and others rather than on "doing the black and saying the red" (not that those are bad things, mind you).
4) Living the Christian life radically.

Now, I know these are all things that every Christian should be doing. In my experience, however, it is primarily within the charismatic renewal that I have seen these things most actively lived out.

The real point of the charismatic renewal is radical life in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. But that's the point of Christianity in general. The charismatic renewal isn't for everyone. If it's not for you, then don't spend any time on it. It's got its own set of problems as well as its own strengths. But then again, so too does the "traditionalist" movement. Every movement in the Church has always had its own problems. What I've always wondered is why people are so quick to point out the problems of the charismatic renewal, but will easily overlook the problems of other movements such as the "traditionalists". Oh well.

Ah, T-Ball theology!

Philip,

How can you say the movement itself is very good?

Do you believe that talking NONSENSE is from the Holy Spirit?