www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Push to Ordain Women Priests Gains Ground

Anyone attempting to ordain a woman, as well as the woman who attempts to receive ordination, is automatically excommunicated.

Has that happened to the people in the story?

Which only points out one of the salient differences between the Catholic and Orthodox mindsets: these Orthodox "modernists" (please try to find a more accurate term that really means something more than "people with whose opinion I disagree") are content to talk and discuss; they would never dream of breaking with the Tradition and actually "ordaining" women to the presbyterate, and if they did, they would never dare to call themselves "good Orthodox Christians", because if being Orthodox means anything at all, it means being in communion with bodies of like-minded believers who adhere to a Tradition.

One can posit why this is the case. That the Tradition is intrinsic and thus forms internalized bonds of loyalty and assent, while the Catholic magisterium is extrinsic and relies more on an appeal to authority is just one possible reason.

I think two things enter here, peculiar to what Catholics see themselves to be in this age.

1. We've heard so much of the "spirit of Vatican II" which has come to mean that anything "traditional" is something we have either "given up" or should give up to be "up to date."

2. Catholics don't seem to understand the difference between big "T" and small "t" Traditiontradition (or to have the smallest clue, in my experience). They don't seem to have the Orthodox understanding of Tradition being the ongoing life of the Holy Trinity lived out within the Church in history--and that history being the present as well as the past: the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth. (That really goes over lots of heads in my experience of discussion groups.) But, then, catechesis hasn't been the best in over 45 years either.

Bob

I get the point quite well thank you. That is, unless you are speaking of the deliberate attempt by some to use this nonsensical story to distort the state and position of the entire Catholic Church.

Actually, if I understand how this works, these people excommunicated themselves when they engaged in these acts. They do not need a formal document certifying their excommunication. That is what automatic excommunication means. Further action would be forthcoming for the priest involved but the woman can by all the vestments she wants, wonder around calling herself what ever she wants and there is nothing the Church can or will do about it other than warn people of the danger to their souls if they become involved with her in anyway.

One last point. There is no St. Harold's Catholic Community in the Archdiocese of Chicago. This is just another group masquerading as a Catholic church. Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church does not have a registered trademark on the term Catholic. One source describes Father Bob Bossie this way:"Father Bob Bossie, of the PRO-gay rights and women's rights Catholic organization, 8th Day Center for Justice." Apparently, he is a very popular fellow among the lunatic fringe of the Catholic Church.

My point once again is why is anyone on the list giving any credence to these people? They have nothing to do with the other 50 million Catholics in this country.

Brief bio on Priest Bob Bossie:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1075

Scroll down to the end there: Bossie is a supporter of World Can't Wait, an intiative founded in June 2005 by Charles Clark Kissinger, a longtime leader of the Revolutionary Communist Party.

Can't he be removed/censured based on Latin Canon 1394:

One who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or moderates such an association, however, is to be punished with an interdict. [Code of Canon Law, Latin-English Edition. Canon Law Society of America, Washington, D.C., 1983, p. 497.]


By the way the address of "St. Harold's Catholic Community" aka "St. Harold Community" is listed as 4720 Sheridan in Chicago.. also the address of "Chicago Uptown Ministry, now a program of Lutheran Child and Family Services of Illinois"
(http://www.lcfs.org/Page.aspx?pid=1173) Why don't these phonies just accept their protestant Lutheranism and quit pretending? The priest is still a member of the SCJ congregation.. on paper.. born in 1937.. =)

This is a valid point for Latin Catholics in our time.

But I believe Orthodoxy have its own problem where Tradition vs tradition is so mixed up that sometimes what is 'tradition' is canonized in par with 'Tradition.' And any changes in 'tradition' can create much violence and perhaps, schism.

For traditionalists, "Tradition" is "the way we were doing things on the day I was baptized".

If you go to: http://www.spirituschristi.org you can see for yourself just where the push for ordination of women can lead.

At least these folks had the integrity to depart from union with the Catholic Church.

A gal from my year in college turned into one of these.

Bizarrely, the alumni magazine for my Catholic (well, Jesuit) college included her blurb claiming to be a founding "bishop" of some new "Catholic" church. She also claimed to have been an "independent Catholic priest" for several years.

She had been a theology major and, yes, a heretic as an undergraduate.

I don;t think that this is true in all cases. For example, there is the case of Ludmila Javorova who was ordained a priest by Bishop Davidek in Czechoslovakia. I don;t think that the Vatican ever excommunicated her.In fact, Ludmila Javorová is an active member of the Roman Catholic Church and she is currently a speaker of the Liturgical Commission of her local parish. However, she does not exercise any of her priestly powers.

That would be because she doesn't have any.

The major problem is with the education the Church provides. I was speaking with a women who said she was a Eucharistic Minister (although we all know that only bishops, priests, and deacons are the only Eucharistic Ministers.) It was flu season and she stated that she was "giving out the wine" at church and had to drink what was left over. I corrected her and the conversation did not turn out well. This just one exmple of how poorly some lay people are educated. The really bad thing is the extraordinary minsters of the eucharist actually have to attend training. I'm not sure what they are taught but apparently it is not enough.