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Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354409 10/13/10 05:21 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by StuartK The key word in that that clause of the Creed is not "remission" but "one". As I said, the principal reason for its inclusion was pastoral--a rejection of the multiple baptisms for the remission of sins which was commonplace at the time (and in the absence of a fully developed Sacrament of Reconciliation). In any case, most catechumens in the late fourth century were adults--they had actual sins to remit, but remission of sins was not--and is not--the principal purpose of baptism, merely one of its happy concomitants. In fact, infant baptism was probably pretty rare at the time, and for quite some time, bishops flailed around looking for a good reason to do so. Augustine's answer was not the one accepted in the East, though. Well said! In the quotation I provided from St. John Chrysostom's baptismal homilies he corrects the error of those who think that baptism only removes sins by mentioning the other gifts it bestows. Certainly baptism removes sins from one who has committed them, while also bestowing the other gifts mentioned by St. John, but in the case of a baby, who of course has committed no sins, it provides only those other gifts.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354410 10/13/10 05:26 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by ajk What then of un-baptized new-borns who die? Heaven? Hell? Etc.? If Etc.?, then what is it? I am sure that St. John Chrysostom was familiar with the creed, but he simply did not read it in an Augustinian fashion. No one is conceived or born sinful. As far as an unbaptized baby is concerned, his end is the same as that of every other man, i.e., he will participate for all eternity in the divine energy. Nevertheless, his (i.e., the unbaptized baby’s) experience of that divine presence will not be the same as that of a man who - through the free exercise of his will - lived a life of virtue, but he will not be punished with damnation, for as a mere babe he committed no sins. I am not an Augustinian. Is asking that question "Augustinian"? I hope not: for clarification, I have another. What then of the state of one who dies as: unbaptized new-born infant; unbaptized adult noble "pagan"; just baptized?

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354411 10/13/10 05:29 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by StuartK The key word in that that clause of the Creed is not "remission" but "one". As I said, the principal reason for its inclusion was pastoral . . . Well said! In the quotation I provided from St. John Chrysostom's baptismal homilies he corrects the error of those who think that baptism only removes sins . . . It is the key word if one wants to make it so and ignore the other quite explicit words. However, where was it said (the "As I said...")? I do of course agree that noting the other graces and aspects of baptism is an important catechesis.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354412 10/13/10 05:31 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by ajk Except for mortality and its consequences, how does this state differ from that of Adam before the Fall? Mortality is the difference, and all the consequences that flow from it (e.g., a tendency to fall into sin by trying to prolong this mortal existence, the unruliness of the passions which seek to fulfill pleasure with no thought to one's eternal destiny, etc.). Mortality is problem enough, which is why there is no need to invent a legal fiction that all men are conceived or born sinful. I explicitly excepted mortality so you haven't answered my question.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354413 10/13/10 05:35 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Luvr of East Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by ajk To be clear(er), I mean objectively. For instance, a recent, official presentation of the Catholic faith says: Quote . . . That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception . . . That is a Western presentation of the faith. Look, I understand that what I am saying is hard for many Catholics (Roman and Eastern) to accept, but as the Melkite Patriarch said back in 2002: "The difficulty lies in the fact that Rome is not ready to give the Eastern Catholic Churches the genuine rights they deserve. Rome would more easily give them to the Orthodox Churches. We do not represent, in a full sense, genuine Orthodoxy, to Rome or to the Orthodox Churches. Therefore, it is just and fit to ask: Are we allowed to have this role, to be a bridge, to be a window? Can we really fulfill such a role? Are we prepared for it? For my part, I answer: Yes! . . ." Apotheoun, What is the source for this? I'm not asking to question it, but I would like to know since I am changing from Rome to the Melkite Church.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354414 10/13/10 05:38 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ByzBob Originally Posted by ajk What then of the state of one who dies as: unbaptized new-born infant; unbaptized adult noble "pagan"; just baptized? The propensity to ask these sorts of questions is what gets the Western Church into trouble (IMO), and causes it to develop such things as purgatory, limbo, indulgences, etc., etc. Sometimes it is better to not ask so many questions. Trust in God.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354416 10/13/10 05:41 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by Luvr of East Apotheoun, What is the source for this? I'm not asking to question it, but I would like to know since I am changing from Rome to the Melkite Church. Kyrie eleison, Manuel The Melkite Patriarch's comments are taken from the "Orientale Lumen VI Conference Proceedings 2002," which is available for purchase from Eastern Christian Publications [ssl.webvalence.com].

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354417 10/13/10 05:44 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by StuartK The key word in that that clause of the Creed is not "remission" but "one". As I said, the principal reason for its inclusion was pastoral . . . Well said! In the quotation I provided from St. John Chrysostom's baptismal homilies he corrects the error of those who think that baptism only removes sins . . . It is the key word if one wants to make it so and ignore the other quite explicit words. However, where was it said (the "As I said...")? I do of course agree that noting the other graces and aspects of baptism is an important catechesis. Perhaps, but as Fr. Meyendorff pointed out long ago, the creed speaks of "sins" not "sin." It is not referring to some notion of "original sin."

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354418 10/13/10 05:46 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by Apotheoun Originally Posted by ajk Except for mortality and its consequences, how does this state differ from that of Adam before the Fall? Mortality is the difference, and all the consequences that flow from it (e.g., a tendency to fall into sin by trying to prolong this mortal existence, the unruliness of the passions which seek to fulfill pleasure with no thought to one's eternal destiny, etc.). Mortality is problem enough, which is why there is no need to invent a legal fiction that all men are conceived or born sinful. I explicitly excepted mortality so you haven't answered my question. Yes, I did answer your question, and it is not my problem that you do not like the answer. Mortality is the effect of the original sin, and everything that it brings with it, e.g., unruliness of passions, an inordinate desire to keep this life going at all costs, a weakening of the will, etc.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354419 10/13/10 05:48 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by ByzBob Originally Posted by ajk What then of the state of one who dies as: unbaptized new-born infant; unbaptized adult noble "pagan"; just baptized? The propensity to ask these sorts of questions is what gets the Western Church into trouble (IMO), and causes it to develop such things as purgatory, limbo, indulgences, etc., etc. Sometimes it is better to not ask so many questions. Trust in God. Asking questions is how we learn. If you don't like "purgatory, limbo, indulgences", even though they are in the vocabulary of the Catholic Church, then answer the question, if you can, without using them. It may be the case that "it is better to not ask so many questions" because the answers are not to one's liking. But I do trust that as there are rational questions that can legitimately be asked, there are also true answers.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354420 10/13/10 05:50 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ByzBob Originally Posted by ajk Asking questions is how we learn. If you don't like "purgatory, limbo, indulgences", even though they are in the vocabulary of the Catholic Church, then answer the question, if you can, without using them. It may be the case that "it is better to not ask so many questions" because the answers are not to one's liking. But I do trust that as there are rational questions that can legitimately be asked, there are also true answers. The secret things belong to God. Our musing about what may or may not happen to an unbaptized infant that dies is just that, our musings. As Christ told Peter, "What concern is it of yours? You follow me."

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354421 10/13/10 05:54 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by griego catolico Originally Posted by Apotheoun Mortality is problem enough, which is why there is no need to invent a legal fiction that all men are conceived or born sinful. Apotheoun, Then how do you reconcile what you state with what Psalm 51:5 says: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me (King James Translation)? The Sacred Scriptures are certainly not fiction. God bless.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354422 10/13/10 05:55 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by StuartK The problem is not in asking questions, but in insisting one has the answer, particularly when the subject is a true mystery. The Fathers warned us of the dangers of idle speculation, for they knew how divisive it could become, and how it could lead one into the realm of spiritual delusion. Better, they thought, to have the humility to say, "I don't know", or "It is a deep mystery", and leave it at that. But some people just need to have everything nicely packaged, placed in a box and tied up with a ribbon--and in matters pertaining to God, that way lies both madness and error.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354423 10/13/10 05:57 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by StuartK Originally Posted by griego catolico Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me . . . The KJV translation is incorrect. The LXX says, "in sins did my mother conceive me". That plural is important, and its absence in the Vulgate may have much to do with how the Western concept of sin as guilt transmitted through sexual reproduction originated.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354424 10/13/10 05:59 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,855 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Luvr of East Originally Posted by StuartK Originally Posted by griego catolico Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me . . . The KJV translation is incorrect. The LXX says, "in sins did my mother conceive me". That plural is important, and its absence in the Vulgate may have much to do with how the Western concept of sin as guilt transmitted through sexual reproduction originated. Stuart, What is the LLX? Kyrie eleison, Manuel