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Thursday, October 14, 2010

Sympathetic Skeptics: Lay Orthodox Christians Hold Their Ground on Orthodox-Catholic Church Reunion

The results of the 2010 Lay Orthodox Survey on Attitudes Toward Orthodox-Catholic Reunion

I. Executive Summary
“Sympathetic skepticism” and unwavering faithfulness to Orthodox Tradition aptly describe the attitudes, some positive, some negative that the 2010 Orthodox Lay People Survey recorded from Orthodox respondents when faced with the prospect of reunion between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. Although most respondents were remarkably open to exploring reconciliation and even for receiving a Council’s decision authorizing and enabling reunion, Orthodox respondents envisioned reunion only along strictly Orthodox theological lines, leaving little room for dogmatic diversity and with a significantly redefined notion of Roman Papal Primacy if one is to be retained at all. Despite exhaustive mutual consultation and general councils, reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches may not take place at the grassroots, where lay Orthodox Christians reject membership within the reconciled Churches, making reconciliation a mere canonical formality without practical consequences and real liturgical communion between the Churches.

Read more:

http://vivificat1.blogspot.com/2010/10/sympathetic-skeptics-lay-orthodox.html

None of this surprises me but it does pain me. One of our "podvigs", as ECs, is to perhaps reform ourselves so that union with us will be more appealing to our Orthodox friends and brothers.
I don't blame them for their scepticism. Just think of the promises Rome has made to EC Churches and then went back on their word. "Cum data fuerit" comes quickly to mind...so often we ECs are our own worst enemies.

I can't help but wonder, and I suspect that a similar survey among Catholics would bear this out, that Catholic responses would be similar. After all, for generations we have been taught (and have pounded in our heads) that 'we' are right and 'they' are wrong. Tough to sell without a lot of long term pastoral care and insight. Also, while hierarchs many come to some agreement there will be 'loose cannons' on both sides proclaiming the end of times etc...... I often wonder whether anyone really listens when we call for the unity of Faith in both of our houses.....

I actually doubt that such a survey among RC lay people would garner any response at all. I have been reasonably active in at least a dozen churches over the years and have been in thousands of discussions with people in church settings over the years and I do not remember one conversation in which the subject of reunion with Orthodoxy came up. Actually I don't remember one time when the subject of Orthodoxy came up. Form many reasons, a lot of them obvious, there is I believe a fortress mentality among Orthodox. Given the size and influence of the Catholic Church that doesn't exist at least here. If Catholics think about reunion at all it is probably with Anglicans or Protestants.

It will probably disappoint some people on the forum, but at the UGCC parish I attend, the RC churches I have some involvement with, and my Ukrainian and Greek Orthodox friends, the topic of reunion just doesn't come up. And Jim G is correct, among the RC's, talk of the Anglicans coming back is quite common nowdays.

At my parish there isn't really even a broad concept of the Orthodox Church as a unified whole in this country. What matters to people is our parish and our diocese, and there isn't much vision beyond that. I would say that is both good and bad in different ways, but it is what it is. Retaining our existing base is probably of the utmost importance.

In conversations with lay Catholics, at work/home etc., there is almost complete ignorance of what the Orthodox Church is or that it even exists at all. What I gather in those conversations is people admire things about the Protestant churches that they would like to import in to Catholicism.

I find the results of the survey sad, but not too surprising - esp. given the input of AMM & Lawrence re the consciousness of most Orthodox and RC lay people respectively.

I suspect each of those churches (Orthodox and Latin) live their ecclesial lives conscious of their own church world and not very conscious of each other (that esp. true of the Latins, given that they are so big).

There's probably some sociological principle that states big countries are aware of mostly themselves and not aware of small countries; but small countries/cultures are aware of the big one. E.g. all Canadians know who the president of the US is but I would guess few Americans know who is the head of state of Canada. Hence Eastern Catholics know a lot about the Latin Church, but not vice versa. Thus if a church is big enough it is not very aware of much beyond itself.

Plus those who care most about reunion are those who have the most at stake, the Eastern Catholics, because we are, as it were, the "children of divorce", and live this anomalous existence of, as it were, being in Communion with a Church we are not part of and being out of Communion of a Church we are part of.

Finally, also not surprising, when even within the Eastern Catholics themselves, we are split between those who think themselves "Orthodox" in theology etc. and "more Catholic" in theology. Perhaps the skepticism has some real foundation.

1) So does anyone believe there is a way to elevate the awareness of Latin Catholics about Orthodoxy, and Orthodox about Latin Catholics, and all of us about the importance of unity?

2) Would some sort of large scale "ecumenism" education program make any difference?

3) How can we get people excited about this topic and breakdown the ignorance about each other?

4) Can we find a reason for people to care and be willing to appreciate the "other" more?

5) Any suggestions about what "trigger" could inspire the laity to pay attention, and try to avoid another Council of Florence?

Jack

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The results aren't surprising; as noted in the comments, North Americans are more favorable to reunion than Europeans so the result are skewed towards the "favorable toward union" bias.

Regarding Jack's five questions ....until we are commonly persecuted and seek strength through common unity there will be few grass roots efforts. An example on the hierarchial level is the Moscow Patriarchate moving towards communication with Rome.

God works in "mysterious ways" so anything can happen; we disciples of Christ have to remain "moldable" to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us.

Christ is amongst us!
Fr Deacon Paul

Slava Isusu Christu! Glory to Jesus Christ!

As an ordained Reader of the Eparchy of Passaic, I have been giving a series of talks about the Eastern Churches. I openly joke that like a politician I have only one stump speech which I modify as needed for the occasion. I have several variants of the talk depending on the audience:

To children in the local Catholic Schools at the Fifth Grade level the talk is pretty basic.

For Sixth Graders who are in an art class, I bring them to our small parish church and try to explain something about icons as windows to heaven, praying with icons, the Jesus Prayer.

For Eighth Graders I go deeper into the theological problems and the history of the "great divorce".

The address by Metropolitan Kallistos: "What's Our Bottom Line?", discussing six problems that now exist between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church is an appropriate topic at the high school, college or adult level after an introduction to the Eastern churches. When I give this part of the talk, I always credit Mertopolitan's talk which he gave to the Orientale Lumen VIII Conference (June of 2004)
[By the way, this presentation is available on OLTV; I encourage everyone to take a look.]

I think God has blessed this work. He certainly has opened up opportunities to talk to many groups, CCD at grade school and high school levels, the Catholic Fellowship at the local university, various Knights of Columbus Councils, parish adult education programs, RCIA classes, etc. I even was invited to come to an Episcopal parish adult education class/discussion group.

I always provide a single sheet with the outline of my talk and some suggested links to web sites. And I always bring some icons along to introduce the Seventh Ecumenical Council.
For what it is worth, I would be glad to share my notes and outline with anyone who is interested.

It seems to me, that at a level far above mine, someone needs to make a real push so that at all the parishes, there would be some education - for both RC and Orthodox parishes - about the other churches, lest the people in the pews, yawn and ignore or worse, openly oppose any attempts at coming back into full communion.

Joseph, humble Reader

This passage is well expressed...

"Orthodox and Catholics leaders must also be aware that conciliar consultation whether intramurally between the Orthodox Churches or between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church, will not result necessarily in the healing of the schism. Orthodox Christians are conditioned by their Tradition to not accept conciliar decisions without question, nor do they conceive of such councils as binding and ecumenical without general reception of their teaching by the whole Church, and that takes time. A tradition of dissent from and even of condemning conciliar agreements that depart from Eastern Orthodoxy has been common currency in the Orthodox Churches for centuries. Many will invoke this tradition to support their rejection of any reunion council despite a substantive agreement on all significant issues. In other words, reunion is far from certain, even if all consultation mechanisms are exhausted, unless lay Orthodox Christians are convinced that reunion would be in the best interest of their Churches, and more importantly, that such a union does not do violence to their faith."

For the majority of people EC, RC or Orthodox, the number one priority, that surpasses all others combined, is simply keeping there parish afloat. Sure you could attempt to have some class where the traditions of other churches are explained, but realistically speaking, I think after the first class, I doubt there would be all that much interest, because there are just way too many other things that will take priority.

I have recommended this series of podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio, Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy [ancientfaith.com] on other threads. I enjoyed it and learned a lot. It is from an Orthodox perspective, of course. However, I think it is both illustrative of the possibilities and the problems. The treatment of the Roman Catholic Church, while valid in content, seems intent on magnifying the differences and reinforcing the divide between the communions.

Keeping things afloat, or even more importantly spending some time learning about ones own tradition.

Awareness of Catholicism is not a problem for us.

I agree. It is well expressed of the situation. If anything even smells Roman, it will be guilty by association to many Orthodox. It's what i've said all along. Many Orthodox simply stand with their arms crossed and will accept reunion on their terms only because they feel that they have absolutely nothing they need reconcile. They see Rome as "other" not as "brother". It's much easier to keep "other" at arms distance than when one is faced with the reality that it is your brother you need to reconcile in charity with.

And for the record, Rome has the exact same problem.

Until both sides are willing to look inwardly, instead of outwardly at the other, ain't much is gonna happen. After all, this schism has been rather comfy for people on both sides, who in their heart, really don't want the messiness that comes with reconciliation and communion.
Just my 2 cents.