|
0 members (),
493
guests, and
111
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,530
Posts417,670
Members6,182
| |
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,771 Likes: 30
John Member
|
|
John Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,771 Likes: 30 |
I would not be surprised if Rome would approve most ordinands. I think the only problem would arise if the unlucky fellow happened to have been once in the Latin Church. That would be interesting to see. This part of the issue. Rome fears that a number of good married men would transfer from the Latin Church to the Byzantine to seek ordination.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
So, basically, Rome does not trust the good judgment of the Ruthenian bishops who are appointed by . . . Rome.
Hmmm. That says a lot.
On the other hand, Rome doesn't seem to have any issues with the Melkites, Ukrainians or Romanians. Why is that, do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968 |
This part of the issue. Rome fears that a number of good married men would transfer from the Latin Church to the Byzantine to seek ordination. Personally, I don't think the numbers would be that great. But, what are we going to do if and when we ever achieve unity between our two Churches? (Yes, I know that best case scenario that's awhile off.) In a reunited Church would an Eastern parish have to decline to ordain someone who had once been Latin? I don't think that sort of restriction would fly for Orthodox in a reunited Church.
Last edited by DTBrown; 10/03/10 10:40 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3 |
Never put the cart before the horse. In any case, unless ALL Greek Catholic bishops everywhere are determined to restore the fullness of the Tradition of their Mother Churches, there will be no unity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
Dave,
I doubt that 'Special Norms' is meant as a reference to Cum Data Fuerit, but is intended as an open-ended clause, going forward, for any norms adopted - which, in this instance, seem to be those imposed on/incorporated into the Metropolia's Particular Law.
As regards the other hierarchical Churches in the US, I can confidently state that the Melkites do not seek dispensation to ordain married men to the presbyterate and I am willing to state with great confidence that neither the Ukrainians nor Romanians do so.
As to the presbyteral ordination of married men who came from the Latin Church, I really had to think about that. But, on reflection, I am reasonably certain that Father Archimandrite Andre St Germain, ordained in the precedent-breaking 1996 Christmas Eve ceremony by Bishop John (Elya), was a Latin by birth and translated to the Melkite Church. Have there been others such, since then? Not completely sure.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
In reading this thread's posts since it was resurrected, and in response to complaints from both Catholic and Orthodox forum members, I found it necessary to delete a couple of remarks regarding the Ruthenian hierarchy.
A reminder - it is possible to disagree with, even personally dislike, someone without being rude, crude, or disrespectful. Further, the ability to do so is a mark of maturity and of professionalism, as well as effectively modeling behavior that civilized society still values.
Additionally, this forum has a long-standing requirement that posters speak respectfully of the Catholic and Orthodox hierarchy. Most often that rule is invoked with respect to comments made about individual hierarchs, but there are clear instances in which it is just as applicable to collective references. These were such instances.
Please keep this in mind as the discussion continues.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968 |
Neil, Thanks for the word on the Melkites. You are probably right that the "special norms" do not specifically refer to Cum Data Fuerit but to the principle that the Apostolic See can restrict ordaining married men if it wants to. An interesting comment in a 2003 America article: [ americamagazine.org] Vatican Stops Suspending Ordained Married Men
Despite a rule the Vatican insists is still in force, it has stopped suspending married men ordained to the priesthood for service in the Eastern Catholic churches of North America and Australia. The ordinations are occurring regularly, although they are not great in number, and they are celebrated quietly. “Rome will allow the ordinations, but it does not want a bishop to ordain married men, then splash pictures all over the place,” said the Rev. Kenneth Nowakowski, rector of Holy Spirit Seminary in Ottawa and spokesman for the Ukrainian bishops of Canada.
Msgr. Lucian Lamza, an official in the Vatican’s Congregation for Eastern Churches, said on May 22 that the Vatican’s ban on the ordination of married men for the Eastern churches in the West “remains unchanged.” The ordinations “are against the norm,” he said. “But, of course, these priests can validly celebrate the liturgy and sacraments,” since the ordinations are sacramentally valid. He would not discuss the Vatican’s reaction or lack of reaction to the ordinations.
In 1929 the Vatican, at the request of the Latin-rite bishops of the United States, ruled that married priests could not serve the Eastern-rite churches in the United States. The ban was applied to Canada in the 1930’s and to Australia in 1949. But Ukrainian, Ruthenian and Melkite Catholic bishops who support the ordination of married men throughout their communities have said the Second Vatican Council’s call to respect the traditions and disciplines of the Eastern churches and similar affirmations in the 1990 Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches have nullified the ban. Quite a mixed message. Apparently, if it's going to be written down in legislation, then Rome still does not want to give a carte blanche on ordaining married men.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
Dave,
I'm fairly certain that there has not been a suspension of faculties over this matter since pre-1990. I am fairly certain that I still remember the specifics of the last time it happened.
The current rule (except for the Metropolia) would seem to be 'ok, you're doing it, we know you are and we don't like it, but we don't know how to stop it, so could you do it quietly, please, because it makes us nervous when people see it and ask questions'.
Many years,
Neil
Last edited by Irish Melkite; 10/03/10 11:44 PM.
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968 |
A very interesting request made by a Coptic Catholic Bishop at the recent Eastern Catholic Synod [ cnewa.us] held in Rome: 13 Oct 2010 – By Cindy Wooden
VATICAN CITY (CNS) — The vast majority of Catholics in the Middle East belong to Eastern Catholic churches, and their bishops spoke loudly at the Vatican, asking for greater respect and a higher profile for Eastern Catholics...
Coptic Bishop Antonios Aziz Mina of Guizeh, Egypt, said that especially when there are more faithful of an Eastern church living outside than inside the church’s territory, “it is not entirely logical that some faithful who belong to a ‘sui iuris’ church have no relationship with the church they belong to, other than liturgically."
“My request is that the patriarch be granted personal jurisdiction over the faithful of his church wherever they might be,” he said. And the Coptic Bishop went on to request: [ cnewa.us] : The Coptic bishop also asked Pope Benedict XVI to revoke a decision made in the 1930s that Eastern churches can ordain married men only in their traditional homelands. I post this here as I think it fits into the discussion we've been having on this subject. I'm wondering, however, if it belongs on the Prayer Page too?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968 |
Coptic Catholic Aziz Mina's speech on this subject is up at the Vatican website: [ vatican.va] My request is that the Patriarch be granted personal jurisdiction over the faithful of his Church wherever they might be.
Bishoprics for the Eastern faithful deprived of a hierarch:
This pre-Council juridical structure, that arose for the pastoral care of the Eastern faithful living outside their territories of origin, appears to be entirely outdated, in fact I would even go so far as to say it is contrary to the dispositions of present law.
I propose instead to look again at the juridical position of the existing bishoprics for the Eastern faithful deprived of a hierarch, with a view to their abolition.
The mission of married priests outside the patriarchal territories
Since the 1930s there has been a ban on the ordination of and the practice of the ministry by married priests outside the territories of the Patriarchy and the “Historically Eastern regions”.
I think, in line with whatever the Holy Father decides, that the time has come to take this step in favor of the pastoral care of the Eastern faithful throughout the Diaspora.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411 |
The tragedy is that Rome, eighty years later, is still unwilling to regard the Byzantine-Rite Catholic Church in the United States as anything but a tolerated Church. In recent years the Byzantine-Rite Church attempted to secure the restoration of the married priesthood in the United States once again. The Vatican reaffirmed the celibacy provision of Cum Data Fuerit by its refusal to act on the request of the Byzantine Church.
If Pope Benedict really wanted to demonstrate his understanding of and regret for the divisions in families and the heartaches that Cum Data Fuerit had caused in the Byzantine Church since 1929 he could do two things. In the external forum he could rescind the excommunication of Metropolitan Orestes Chornock with the admission that his return to Orthodoxy was done out of the love of his Church and people which Rome, wittingly or unwittingly, was in the process of destroying.
Internally the Pope could rescind the celibacy provision of Cum Data Fuerit to demonstrate that Rome no longer regards our Eastern Rite brothers and sisters as unwanted and unloved, subject to the needs and prejudices of the American Roman Catholic Church. Until then we can only conclude that no matter how “Eastern” services appear in the Byzantine Church that it is still fundamentally simply a group of Roman Catholics who have a “different Mass.” from here [ acrod.org].
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399 Likes: 33
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399 Likes: 33 |
The tragedy is that Rome, ...
If Pope Benedict really wanted to demonstrate his understanding ...
Internally the Pope could rescind the celibacy provision of Cum Data Fuerit... ACROD and Father are entitled to voice their opinion of "Rome." I'm surprised, however, by the mode of expression. It suggests that ACROD has not yet overcome -- moved beyond -- its history. ... to demonstrate that Rome no longer regards our Eastern Rite brothers and sisters as unwanted and unloved, subject to the needs and prejudices of the American Roman Catholic Church. Until then we can only conclude that no matter how “Eastern” services appear in the Byzantine Church that it is still fundamentally simply a group of Roman Catholics who have a “different Mass.” "... unwanted and unloved." Get real. An absurd premise. Until then we can only conclude that no matter how “Eastern” services appear in the Byzantine Church that it is still fundamentally simply a group of Roman Catholics who have a “different Mass.” Theologically outlandish and just plain insulting. Like: In 1929 however, the Greek Catholic Bishop Basil Takach, himself enamored of the power and status of the Roman Church in America... And: If the Pope and the Oriental Congregation in Rome saw celibacy as simply a small matter of discipline, the pro-Orthodox such as Fr. Orestes Chornock saw it ultimately as a repudiation of their faith. Celibacy is a "matter of discipline" and is not a matter of faith. It is a significant repudiation of a church's legitimate discipline, but it is not "a repudiation of their faith." With a statement like that and this, Fr. Lawrence can't be taken seriously: Ironically the return of so many former “Greek Catholics” to the Orthodox Church under the leadership of Fr. Orestes Chornock, later Bishop and Metropolitan Orestes of blessed memory probably served to keep alive the Byzantine-Rite Church in America. The program of “Latinization” reached its peak in the 1950’s and 1960’s with the removal of iconscreens, abbreviated Liturgies, the removal of triple-barred crosses, the adoption of the Western date of Pascha and so forth. A loose statement by which, in my eyes, he simply discredits himself. "in a world of darkness..." (as the column is headed) he has furthered its increase. [Which is not to say, however, that Rome's attitude that the (Eastern) mouse must fast so that that the (Western) elephant can feast is as wrong now as it was in the past.]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411 |
It suggests that ACROD has not yet overcome -- moved beyond -- its history. I think they pretty much have and in general it seems to me they maintain pretty good relations with both the RCC and ECC clergy and bishops. Probably more so than other Orthodox jurisdictions. The point of moving beyond history seems to me to be what this thread is about, and in reading the posts of Stuart and others history continues to be an issue. It also seems to me maintaining the excommunication of Bishop Chornock of blessed memory is keeping things were they were. "... unwanted and unloved." Get real. An absurd premise. Overstated in my opinion, but not absurd. When in this post for instance the word "injustice" is used, I agree with that premise. Celibacy is a "matter of discipline" and is not a matter of faith. It is a significant repudiation of a church's legitimate discipline, but it is not "a repudiation of their faith." Well, I disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,441 Likes: 5
Cantor Member
|
|
Cantor Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,441 Likes: 5 |
Glory to Jesus Christ! ACROD has not yet overcome -- moved beyond -- its history. I don't understand what you are saying here...It's extremely important that we don't forget history so as to not let the same things happen again. One of the problems IMHO with the Byzantine Catholic Church is what appears to be the disregarding of hisory and organic development. Ironically the return of so many former “Greek Catholics” to the Orthodox Church under the leadership of Fr. Orestes Chornock, later Bishop and Metropolitan Orestes of blessed memory probably served to keep alive the Byzantine-Rite Church in America. The program of “Latinization” reached its peak in the 1950’s and 1960’s with the removal of iconscreens, abbreviated Liturgies, the removal of triple-barred crosses, the adoption of the Western date of Pascha and so forth.
A loose statement by which, in my eyes, he simply discredits himself. "in a world of darkness..." (as the column is headed) he has furthered its increase. I agree with Fr. Lawrence...I don't know if the Greek Catholic/Ruthenian/Byzantine Catholic Church would have survived without the battles with Metropolitan Orestes...it allowed people to "fight" for what they believe in, therefore, internalize it, the way the BCC was heading at that time, without Frs. Toth and Chornack the little greek catholic church IMHO would have been swallowed up by the Latin Rite.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399 Likes: 33
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,399 Likes: 33 |
Glory to Jesus Christ! ACROD has not yet overcome -- moved beyond -- its history. I don't understand what you are saying here...It's extremely important that we don't forget history so as to not let the same things happen again. One of the problems IMHO with the Byzantine Catholic Church is what appears to be the disregarding of hisory and organic development. Glory forever. Thank you for your balanced reply. History should not be disregarded, but life moves on; I felt the article over-emphasized the past, and brought past differences into the present, as an end in itself. Also, wasn't Trusteeism and ownership of churches another major issue? Ironically the return of so many former “Greek Catholics” to the Orthodox Church under the leadership of Fr. Orestes Chornock, later Bishop and Metropolitan Orestes of blessed memory probably served to keep alive the Byzantine-Rite Church in America. The program of “Latinization” reached its peak in the 1950’s and 1960’s with the removal of iconscreens, abbreviated Liturgies, the removal of triple-barred crosses, the adoption of the Western date of Pascha and so forth. A loose statement by which, in my eyes, he simply discredits himself. "in a world of darkness..." (as the column is headed) he has furthered its increase. I agree with Fr. Lawrence...I don't know if the Greek Catholic/Ruthenian/Byzantine Catholic Church would have survived without the battles with Metropolitan Orestes...it allowed people to "fight" for what they believe in, therefore, internalize it, the way the BCC was heading at that time, without Frs. Toth and Chornack the little greek catholic church IMHO would have been swallowed up by the Latin Rite. Actually, I see -- though very incompletely -- an interesting parallel development. The BCC overcame its self-generated campaign of latinization through the Vatican Council and, significantly (no matter the Bishop Elko intrigues) the 1965/66 liturgicon as a faithful and full translation of the Recension. There was a renewal and a vitality that I sensed but, the course got lost as evidenced by the Revised Divine Liturgy. A true story. I met (in the 90's as I recall) a very cordial (younger as opposed to older) woman at an OL conference; she was from an ACROD parish. We talked quite a bit and she was very emphatic and proud of the fact that she/they -- her parish -- were Orthodox. She was especially proud of their liturgical renewal and had pictures of a recent Great Week observance. She noted that they had just managed to restore the Good Friday procession and though they needed practice, it being just renewed, their priest was helping them out very nicely. This is something my BCC parish had always done in my recollection which dates from 1984. And the priest leading them in renewal: a former BCC priest. Here is another post of mine that illustrates more of my viewpoint.
|
|
|
|
|
