www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News GEORGIAN ORTHODOX PRELATE ENDORSES RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE

This might be old news for those that read EWTN but here goes:

TBILISI, Georgia, (KESTON/CWNews.com) -- The second-ranking Orthodox bishop in Georgia has caused a sensation by apparently endorsing violence against Protestant groups.

The Keston news service has reported that during a February 10 television program, Metropolitan Atanase Chkhvashvili of Rustavi demanded the "abolition" of all religions other than the Orthodox in Georgia, and said that "sectarians"-- a term that he used to include Baptists, Pentecostalists, and Anglicans as well as Jehovah's Witnesses--"have to be shot dead."

The Orthodox prelate professed his support for Father Basil Mkalavishvili, who is facing legal charges for leading a series of violent assaults on Protestant groups. In his television appearance-- on a show dedicated to the issue of religious violence--Metropolitan Atanase said that the Orthodox Church is engaged in a struggle with "sects," and "we do not want to conduct it peacefully."

A spokesman for the patriarchate of the Georgian Orthodox Church told Keston that he was "astonished" by the views expressed by Metropolitan Atanase. "The patriarchate does not share these views at all," he said.


Yea, those Sects/Cults sometimes can get your goat but I would never suggest violence against them.

What are your thoughts?

Dear +Ray,

The Orthodox can be feisty, eh?

But violence can never be an option here for any Christian.

The Orthodox Churches there need people with charisma and who know the Scriptures to go out and "knock 'em dead" all right. But in the Spirit!

In other words, they need people like you and I

Alex

In Georgia, the upcoming Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy is really gonna be a blast...and I thought my mom's gun-toting parish priest back in India was too much...

Dear Catholicos,

You being an Oriental Christian just reminded me that the Ethiopian Priests carry their hand-crosses in special leather "holsters" slung over their shoulders very much like a western cowboy.

But, as far as I know, the only one they've ever told to "get outta town" is the Evil One.

Alex

I wish I could speak the language. I have to admit it but sometimes I like defending the faith against these heresies.

If the Orthodox where not so pompus sometimes they could ask for help from the RCC. After all we have had to deal with these people for about 400 years now. This is all new to the Orthodox since the fall of communism. We have lots of Books and Resources available just for the asking. The Mary Foundation is excellent for things like this.

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Alex,

You said, "You being an Oriental Christian just reminded me that the Ethiopian Priests carry their hand-crosses in special leather "holsters" slung over their shoulders very much like a western cowboy.

But, as far as I know, the only one they've ever told to "get outta town" is the Evil One."

That is Funny! I can see it now the Fastest with the Holy Water in town Ethiopian Orthodox priest Father John Doe says "Welcome Partner" with a John Wayne accent. All evil doers hide and flee as he walks into town.

I don't think the Georgian people will be so easily swayed that they need physical protection. Many of these protestant groups started in America due to American culture. Slavic culture is far removed from the type of philosophy these groups would need to survive. I, for one, am not worried about it. You don't change a thousand years of religion with protestant pseudo-theology.

Dmitri.

In my understanding, this is a very serious topic and views that are expressed such as these embody what it means to be "evil." No matter how righteous some Orthodox want to be in certain cases, this is by far, taking the limits to an extreme and dangerous level.

The disclaimer from the patriarchate is good but what will happen next? Will they take the metropolitan to task for his comments and beliefs or will it just be allowed to pass until something worse occurs or lives are lost?

Can anyone imagine what would happen if a Roman Catholic bishop or a Byzantine priest made this type of public approval of violence? The church would certainly bear the brunt of the statements and apologies would be expected. The cleric in question would probably be censured and no longer allowed to voice his opinions in public. If action was not taken, much criticism would be voiced for the Catholic Church, along similar lines as to what is being said about the Archbishop of Boston.

In addition, people would probably expect all Catholic bishops around the world to join in the condemnation of the priest or bishop that made the remarks or endorsed the violence. Does anyone envision that Orthodox hierarchs or clergy around the world will step up to the podium and decry the comments of this Georgian prelate? Will it even have an effect on other Orthodox or will anyone be astonished by the approach of this man? I suppose it is left to be seen, but in the service of justice and to protect lives, a reaction from Orthodox clergy worldwide against this type of approach to inter-religious disputes would surely set a course for the future. Now would be the time for Orthodox leaders to set the record straight as to Orthodox belief and policy about the use of violence, both physical and verbal, against those who do not share their point of view.

The comments made are not light and cannot be taken as such in any sense. No amount of understanding of the political, social or cultural aspects of the situation can lessen the impact of such threats. Let us see the caliber of world leaders in responding to the seriousness of this developing climate of hatred. Priest Joe

Bless me a sinner, Father Joseph!

Yes, you are right, this is a serious matter.

However, no amount of political pressure or posturing from any corner of the globe will change the "way of it" in countries such as Georgia.

In Ukraine a few years ago, a group of Eastern Catholics actually attacked their Orthodox brothers and sisters during the celebration of the Theophany in their Church!

They beat up parishioners and otherwise ruined the Church.

Later, they came to their brothers and sisters, everyone embraced and the Catholics then paid to build them a completely new Church.

This matter is made all the more dangerous given the fact that, for so many centuries, the Church and the national identity and culture have become so intermingled.

To attack the Church is to, at one and the same time, launch an attack on "Georgia" itself.

Thus, the resort to violence and even arms.

Violence marks the history of the early Church as well. St Cyril of Alexandria was opposed by a woman pagan philosopher whom he railed at and this resulted in her death.

Emperor St Justinian decided to finish off the pagans in his empire by destroying them.

St Thomas More himself believed that a Catholic state had the right to execute those it deemed incorrigible heretics.

St Charles Borromeo actualy ordered his priests to break the seal of confession and inform on those penitents confessing to heresy so that they could be arrested.

There are many other examples.

I don't have the answer to this nor do I have an answer to the many groups seeking to win new converts in Georgia, Russia and elsewhere.

If they are Americans, and many are, then Americans are notorious for not doing their cultural homework before invading another people.

If the sensitivities are not respected, violence can and will result.

Let us also remember that strong rumour had it that the Pope himself threatened the Soviet Union with abdication and a return to Poland to become a moral leader in resistance to a renewed invasion by the USSR.

When it comes to protecting one's people, we North Americans really have no idea what is at stake for peoples of other cultures and histories, even though they share our basic faith.

Alex

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear +Ray,

Yes, with you in Georgia right about now, it would prove to be a "striking performance" in more ways than one!

Our churches have a history of violence, really. For example, St Nicholas bashed Arius over the head at the Council in AD 325.

As a matter of fact, the famous icon of St Nicholas with Christ and the Theotokos on either side of him is the vision seen by the Fathers of the Council after they punished Nicholas for violent behaviour "unbecoming a bishop" and removed the insignia of his episcopal office.

And, in case you haven't noticed, one or two people around here DO get a little annoyed at times . . .

We should all pray for a peaceful outcome in this sad and dangerous situation.

Let's all keep "Georgia on our minds" and hearts!

Alex

Well, I think the Georgian bishop is wrong. That being said, religious tolerance is sort of a new idea. The fourth Lateran council (considered ecumenical and "infallible") by Rome proscribed that rulers "exterminate" heretics. If they failed to do so, the people were permitted to rebel. In addition, one of the "heresies" of Martin Luther condemned in the papal bull Exsurge Domine is that "burning heretics is against the will of the Holy Spirit." The pope said that burning heretics is not against the will of the Holy Spirit. Of course, Vatican II came along and Dignitis Humanae overturned previous pronouncements, but that was only 40 years ago.

Dear Joseph,

You are right, of course.

But we should also remember that religion and the nation-state were so intrinsically intertwined, and still are, that it is difficult to see where religion ends and national concerns begin.

We North Americans have difficulty in understanding this because we live in a society where there is a formal separation of Church and state.

As one Jewish professor from Tel Aviv once said, "In Israel, even the Jewish atheist knows what the God he doesn't believe in expects him to do!"

Alex

Russia, what is now the Czech Republic, and other Slavic lands actually have a history that is---'Spasi Gospods---rich with religious dissent and sectarianism.

From the Old Believers,to Dukhobors--who are far from boring, as the Canadians will tell you--to Molokans,Mennonites, Antibaptists, Tolstoians, Regular Baptists, Irregular Baptists, Quasi-Regular/Irregular Baptists, Spirit Wrestlers--who are neither members of the WCC or WWF--to indigenous Pentecostalists, Russian Studen, and many, many other sects, Russia (not to mention other slavic lands), is a regular cornucopia of indigenous Christian sectarianism.

Both the Orthodox Church of Russia and the Catholic Church of the Czech lands have tried, over the centuries, to exterminate dissent, with little success in the long run. Persecution of the sectarians in Russia has only increased their numbers.

This Georgian prelate has a lot to learn about the power of religious faith and commitment.

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."

Ephraim

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

Dear Ephraim,

You make your point eloquently, as always!

However, I think a distinction should be drawn between suppression of home-grown sectarian dissent, such as the Old Believers, and the invasion, from without, of western groups, including "establishment" religions such as the Latin Church, to set up shop in these countries.

Again, there is more than religion and religious pluralism involved.

It is the rather dangerous scenario of a foreign invasion through churchly mechanisms, as perceived by these and other peoples, designed to subvert not so much the national church (although national church leaders worry about that too), but to subvert the nation period.

The Old Believers were harshly persecuted because their adherence to the old (and true) Russian ritual forms were seen as something preventing the realization of the Tsar's dream of becoming the new "Byzantine Emperor of all the Orthodox."

What we have in Georgia is a much more dangerous scenario involving all strata of society feeling their nationhood, through the Church, threatened.

Alex