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Hello all. I was wondering if we could have a discussion on the best translation of the Greek original for "now and ever and unto ages of ages." We've all seen many translations of this. I personally prefer "now and always and forever and ever" but am not completely convinced that it's an accurate translation. Some of the other translations I've heard are:

Now and ever and forever.
Now and forever and ever.
Now and forever and unto all eternity.
Now and forever and unto the endless age.

So what would be the best way to translate from the original Greek. I love the poetic ring of "now and forever and unto all eternity", but that doesn't make it a good translation. Any thoughts?

Unto aeon of aeons.

Some things are best left untranslated. Alleluia! Amen.

As I was told "ages of ages" does not mean exactly what we think of as "forever".

"Forever" or "forever and ever" I take to mean something like an infinite future time, or from now to the unending future (or from now to the end of time).

But that is already described in the second part of "Now and 'ever' ".

"Ages of Ages" means the Great Age of the future Kingdom (New Heavens and New Earth, dread and glorious Second Coming, the 8th day of the week, the "day that the Lord hath made", etc. And not just the time line running head endlessly.

Thus there are 3 "time" periods
1. now
2. ever (the future running on until the end of time)
3. ages of ages (when time and our age has ended and a new Age, the Great Age of God's future Kingdom shall come to pass).

thus however one translates it, I hope that future translations will reflect these 3 concepts.

Herb

Phillip:

Christ is in our midst!!

There is a Latin phrase used in the Glory be to the Father prayer, taken from the Greek says "et in saecula saeculorum," literally and "unto ages of ages."

There is a footnote in one of the translations of the Desert Fathers that says this liturgical expression came from them and their meditation on living with the Lord in the age to come--and how long that age would be. That is, trying to describe the concept of eternity, they came up with the idea that the whole of created time, of creation itself, was an "age," a vague singular term that was itself limitless. So an endless ages (plural) of ages was the only way that they had of expressing an idea that made the whole creation a grain of sand placed against the ocean of the existence with God after this brief existence was gone and over. When one has to wrap one's head around a concept that goes against our time-limited experience, it seems a way to stretch our minds toward that idea.

Bob

The Greek is:
"...νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων".

Google's translation is "now and always and forever and ever", but I have a feeling that that translation was intentionally programed into the computer. Such a translation wouldn't necessarily be bad.

I think the one that best one is "both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages" [this gets Herbigny's meaning in; the "both" and comma correctly make "νῦν καὶ ἀεὶ" separate from "εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων" and it should be said with that distinction in mind).

My $0.02.

Our parish, which is Russian Byzantine Catholic, uses "now and forever and unto the ages of ages",as does the local Russian Orthodox OCA I attend.

These [metropolitancantorinstitute.org] from the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh use "now and ever and forever". It that typical of Eastern Catholic translation in America?

No. It's pretty much unique to the Ruthenians (and some Ukrainians). The Melkites use "Unto ages of ages". So does Bishop John Michael of the Romanian Greek Catholics.

Actually no it doesn't. Sadly, Archbishop Cyril changed it to 'Forever and ever'. Supposedly we must use it for a few years and see. It seems it has been a year already. I pray we can go back to the 'Ages of Ages.

The OCA parishes I use to attend used this phrase without the definite article: "both now and ever, and unto ages of ages." Rolled off the tongue in chant rather easily.

Bob

There is another adverb that occurs in some blessings, for instance, the preparatory service for the Liturgy: παντοτε often translated as always. See link [patronagechurch.com].

But if always is used for παντοτε then another word is needed for ἀεὶ, for instance ever. As there is the word aeon, as noted above in a previous post, there is also an English word aye meaning always or ever ( link [merriam-webster.com]). Also, the Greek definite article functions a bit differently than in English, however, if one wants to translate word for word and even keep the alliteration of the Greek, then one gets:

... always, now, and aye, and unto the aeons of the aeons.

Except there is no actual word both.

aeon [merriam-webster.com] is age properly understood.

aye [merriam-webster.com] is obscure so use ever and take pantote as always. With these considerations and translating form the Slavonic, which faithfully follows the Greek but doesn't have a definite article ( page 162 [patronagechurch.com] ) gives (the more understandable)

... always, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

With thanks to Father Paul Ruttle, of blessed memory, and Father John Howard, the Jesuits who labored mightily over several years to provide my classmates and me with an appreciation for and understanding of Attic, Homeric, and Koine Greek. The literal translation is:

νῦν = now
καὶ = and
ἀεὶ = always
καὶ = and
εἰς = unto
τοὺς = all
αἰῶνας = ages
τῶν = of
αἰώνων = ages

The best translation, now and always and unto all the ages of ages

Idiomatically, acceptable translations could, among others, include:
now and always and forever and ever;
now and always and forevermore;
now and always and for all ages yet to come;
now and always and for all time;
now and always and even after the end of time.

As long ago taught by the revered Fathers and others of their ilk, the problem with demanding literal translation is that no language is constructed for the purpose of being translated into another. Thus, synonyms and idioms enter into translation for purposes of achieving readability and/or a pleasing vocalization of texts in the (almost always) more vulgar (common) tongue to which great words will be reduced in translation. In the instance of Latin, the effort required to achieve this is less, because English borrowed so extensively from Latin to achieve a linguistic stature that it was unlikely to otherwise have as a bastard tongue blended from Germanic, Norse, and myriad other regionally and ethnically-based dialects belonging to the rough and ready tribes that inhabited the adjacent areas of the continent.

By sheer luck, the Greek at question here is one peculiarly amenable to being translated almost literally into English. At the same time, it is also very amenable to idiomatic presentation - with the exception of the final words - τῶν αἰώνων - which, by following τοὺς αἰῶνας, demand the verbalization of a concept that does not otherwise exist in our tongue or, really, in any framework other than religion, mythology, fantasy, or science fiction - asking, as it does, that we accept/endorse/embrace the idea that there is a time that is after time.

The closest conceptualization that I have ever encountered is embodied in an imaginary Jewish (perhaps Yiddish, but I don't think so) holiday once oft-cited in response to the never-ending 'when?'s with which parents are constantly bombarded by children. The reply 'next Tishabob' (forgive the phonetization). A very elderly and learned Rebbe of my acquaintance, now long of blessed memory, explained that Tishabob was 'the day after never, the day before forever'. And, I would suggest that his defining expression captures the intent of the Greek words (and, actually, is rather beautifully poetic in English, but unlikely to garner much enthusiasm for adoption in this instance).

So, I'd suggest 'now and always and unto all the ages of ages' is probably the best of the many alternatives. To the comments regarding commas and definitive articles - the interpolation of those is a requisite of English: the former in the original tongue was an effect achieved by rhthym of speech, it did not exist as a punctuation mark; the latter was only occasionally a separately verbalized word.

Many years,

Neil

I still think aeon should not be translated, as "ages" does not really capture the full meaning of the word.

Wow! I didn't expect this to generate so much discussion! Thank you everybody. As I'm far from an expert in either Greek or Slavonic I can only say which English translation is my own subjective preference. One I've come across in a Coptic Orthodox parish I think very well gets at the heart of what is trying to be communicated in the original Greek: "Now and ever and unto the endless age." This has the same sense as the "unto all eternity" that can be found in Fordham's Russian Institute's 1950s translation of the Divine Liturgy, but at the same time keeps the notion of an "age" or "ages of ages" intact.

Looking at the Latin "Gloria Patri..." saecula saeculorum is best translated "ages of ages". Where we get this cumbersome "world without end" is beyond me. "Age without end" I think would've been a better rendition, but who oh well.

I guess when it comes down to it, every translation is going to stumble. It seems, in trying to synthesize all the posts so far, that the best we can do is come up with the best English paraphrase that most closely captures the original sense and intent of the Greek phrase. Either that, or as Stuart suggested leave aeon untranslated. The only problem I see with that suggestion is that most people aren't going to have any idea what an aeon is, and probably aren't going to care enough to look it up in a dictionary.

Take the "a" off "aeon" and you've got the English word. But we all expect the guy or gal in the pew to be unalbe to grasp his/her own language.

Bob

τοὺς and τῶν are inflected forms of the definite article, basically the; the forms are (accusative, masculine, plural) agreeing with αἰῶνας and (genitive, mfn, plural) agreeing with αἰώνων. The inflections are ancillary to the definite article function.

So I don't see:
τοὺς = all (rather just the agreeing with its noun)
τῶν = of (per se; rather of the agreeing with its noun)

A determination must then be made if the article fits with English usage.

How then would παντοτε be translated in the example in my previous post?

This is correct regarding puctuation. But current editions (as I linked above for the Greek and Slavonic) usually supply such punctuation which may be followed especially, I would say, if they are taken as the proper, authoritative texts for the particular liturgical use. Regarding the definite article, however:

It, the Greek definite article, is always a verbalized word in the original language when it is there. Latin and Slavonic do not have the definite article, so it must be dropped as an explicit form in such languages. The Greek definite article has a broader range of use than the English definite article. I would say, however, that it is usually translated (as the) when it makes sense in English usage. For example, two familiar passages from scripture where the +/- attached to the article indicates whether the article is kept or dropped in English; and an unattached + means the definite article is added in the English but it is not in the Greek:

Genesis 1:1 ἐν + ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν -ὁ θεὸς +τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ +τὴν γῆν

John 1:1 Ἐν + ἀρχῇ ἦν +ὁ λόγος, καὶ +ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς -τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν +ὁ λόγος.

Summary of definite article in the two verses:

7 occurrences in Greek with 5 kept in English and 2 dropped

2 occurrences where the article appears in the English but not in the Greek