www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Old-Ritualists Forum Pastoral provisions?

How do the "priestless" Old Believers function without a priest?

What about the other Sacraments? Where do they get the Holy Myron? There's no confession?

I suppose they don't have Divine Liturgy?

Do they attend other Churches to get the Sacraments?

I'm sorry if these are stupid questions.

Blessings

They are not stupid at all. In the absence of someone more qualified to speak on these matters, I will offer a first response. As I understand it, the Priestless Old Believers profess that the reign of Antichrist has begun (a few centuries ago now!) and that the priesthood has been taken away from the Church in these end times. Because there is no more priesthood, there can be no more Divine Liturgies or Absolution or Unction or Ordinations. What I have read is that Chrism and the Reserved Holy Gifts have been preserved by the Priestless Old Believers, minute amounts are administered by lay religious leaders of the community. Lay Baptism is now practiced. Holy Communion from the reserved Gifts is administered extremely rarely, when a Believer is in danger of death. The Orthodox teachings of Confession and Marriage which require the priesthood has had to be modified. All that Believers can now do is "confess their sins to one another." Priestless Old Believers have accepted the Latin sacramental theology that the couple themselves are the ministers of Marriage rather than the priest.

Fr David Straut

how does one keep the sanctified gifts and holy chrism for hundreds of years?

I haven't tried it for hundreds of years, of course. But, in the Orthodox Church, the intincted Gifts are thoroughly dried each year from the Holy Thursday Liturgy and reserved in the Tabernacle for the next year in order for Christ to be present in the church and to commune the sick. The Gifts keep perfectly well for a year. I consume the particles left from the previous year every Holy Thursday and they seem fine to me.

Fr David Straut

I have given Holy Communion from the reserved Lamb that had been properly dried before reserving for a year or so after consecration when a priest was unable to visit some outlying missions, but centuries (outside of some sort of freeze-drying) seems rather difficult. Chrism is a different matter entirely, especially if it is in a vial with little or no headspace for air contact and will keep for a very long time. In spite of some of the oddities regarding the priesthood, several of the bezpopovtsy I have known are the most fervent adherents of the Domostroi and most meticulous about spiritual traditions in the home.

Marduk, my brother,

You may want to take a glance at this thread. In it, I described a number of the Bespopovotsy concords or confessions. Those listed are the sects which engaged in less extreme praxis, albeit much of it would be 'odd' to the thinking of those who come from ecclesial environments where we depend on the ministrations of our presbyters. (There are a couple of companion threads to it which describe the more radical and exotic bodies, both among the Bespopovtsy or outside of that genre, but contemporaneous and often mistakenly classed with them.)

Many of the groups listed are not any longer extant or, if they are, exist in very isolated pockets. The majority of Bespopovotsy today are either of or descended from the Pomorotsy, the largest organized body, including the Fedoseevtsy, which had its origins with them but now stands distinct, constituting the next largest grouping.

We have a few Popovotsy who post here (Misha/Michael78) comes to mind immediately, who may be able to offer some insights; offhand, I believe that there is only a single Bespopovtsi who posts here - fatman - and I haven't seen him in a while.

To follow up on your questions and the comments by Father David and Deacon Randy, in the absence of priests (whom they believe cannot be ordained in the absence of any valid hierarchy), they typically rely on the nastavnik, an elected congregational leader.

Communal confession or confession to the nastavnik are the two most common modes. However, there have been (and may still be) those who see confession as superfluous because the Lord is aware of our sins and acts to forgive those as He sees fit. Still others self-confess or confess directly to God.

Baptism is still ordinarily practiced. In some bodies, the task is relegated to venerable members of the congregation - often women. At least two very small groups that still exist actually seek out presbyters from among the Popovotsy to perform this, although it's the only instance in which they make use of them - the reasoning isn't clear as to why. Self-baptism is commonly practiced in a few sects. There have been bodies that have abandoned its necessity because of belief that we are in the End Times and the time for needing it is past.

There is no liturgy per se, although there is communal worship. A couple of groups maintain quasi-eucharistic liturgical celebrations. I'm unfamiliar with the praxis that Father David describes - of the reservation of Blessed Species over the century - but nothing would surprise me. (I suppose that it could be accomplished in the manner of the Assyrians, who maintain that the 'starter' used for the bread that will be baked for their Communion traces back into time immemorial.)

Marriage is a complex question. The idea that sacramental marriage is not available is fairly well-rooted among the Bespopovtsy. For some groups, it was the basis for abolition of marriage - leading to their ultimate demise, in the way of the Shakers and other celibate congregational groups. Others accept communal witnessing, or witnessing by the couple - as Father David described, and there are those for whom the congregational leader serves a ministerial role.

As far as attending other Churches to obtain the Mysteries - no - because they consider that there are no other Churches, at least not Churches with any grace or priesthood. The sole exception - and it's not done to receive the Mysteries - is a group of whom Father Serge has spoken a few times. 'The Wall People' congregate outside Popopovtsy temples during liturgical celebrations and listen at the open windows, although they do not enter and do not participate. As with many of the mystical practices of the Bespopovtsy, the reasoning behind this is elusive.

Many years,

Neil

There were some "wall people" in Berwick, Pennsylvania, but I'm told that they have died out. In any event, it is unlikely that they would have been able to offer a theological defense of their practice. I don't know if there are any organized "wall people" left in or around Russia.

Fr. Serge

I never have nor will I ever be a Bespopytsi.

My apologies, I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion. I obviously confused you with someone else.

Many years,

Neil

G.I.Kh.S.B.P.N.A.

Greetings friends.

Apologies for not having posted earlier - I have had a number of months spent on a conference which has now, thankfully, come to an end. I am off tomorrow morning for a 6 week holiday so will make this quick.

Neil, I believe, suggested as a Popovtsi I may be able to enlighten the questioner on the topic. Unfortunately I have very little knowledge of the bezpopovtsy and their traditions. To modern-day Old Ritualists more than others, they are indeed an enigma, sealed within a matrioshka doll, wrapped in a Siberian shawl. When Old Ritualists view you as obsessive, hyper-radical traditionalists - you know the group in question is really hard core.

It is ironic that (at least here in Australia) most Popovtsy see the bezpopovtsy being 'simple country folk' and nothing more. I mean no offense by that, it is merely an observation I make based on the lay people I know or have the misfortune of being related to I think that most would be of the opinion that they should just join the Mother Church (that being whichever one they themselves are part of) - which in all honesty here in Australia, the majority have done (to the BK).

I know the Priests here do a yearly trek to some remote areas where they are based in their communes to administer Holy Communiion and hear confession. In regards to marriages, I would assume it is the old 'communit witness' style, as I have not heard of our Priests performing marriages (or baptisms, funerals, etc) - though of course I may well be wrong.

My personal beliefs on the bezpopovtsy (and I believe I may have expressed this opinion on this forum before) is that apart from those that are in quasi-communiion (such as those I just mentioned here in Oz), I view them not as Orthodox but more as Protestants - in the very traditional sense of being anti-establishment and all that is associated with that concept. I therefore have always made the distinction in English of referring to the bezpopovtsy as Old Believers and the Popovtsy as Old Ritualists (the terms Priested and Priestless don't really summarise the distinctions well enough in English). Even though I would suggest the bezpopovtsy beliefs are not necessary old but infact contorted and misconstrued beliefs/customs that arose out of the tyranny of distance together with the environment of harsh mistrust and perscecution, the fact is I don't like to use the term Believer when referring to Popovtsy as the Popovtsy are for all intents and purposes Orthodox and share all core beliefs of mainstream Orthodoxy - rather it is the pomp and ceremony and bells and smells that are different - the rituals. To suggest they are believers in anything different to other Eastern Christian Churches is erroneous. Hence the term Old Ritualist is much more appropriate. I cannot stand the term often suggested by authors (of publications as well as online literature) of "Old Faith" - the faith is one, as it is with all Christendom. I am pleased to say it appears to be less popular these days.

The Old Believers (bezpopovtsy) however do not fall into this above genre. The very nature of asking the question of this topic on pastoral provisions is testimony to that. Were all branches of Orthodoxy to unite tomorrow through Divine enlightenment (if only) I do not believe the Old Believers would be party to that occasion, as they do not meet the basic requirements of being associated with the Orthodox faith. (again - IMO).

Whether the greater question we should be asking is how to provide pastoral provisions to the bezpopovtsy or perhaps how to go about evangelising to them to bring about their conversion (or reintroduction?) into Orthodoxy is far beyond my simple mind - and better left to those gentlemen and women who are far more intelligent and familiar with these matters than I. That is to say, (dare I say), almost everyone else on this forum!

Best wishes to all, I look forward to logging on in 6 weeks' or so time to see other people's thoughts.

Best regards!

Misha

Michael, my brother,

Just got home and it's well past midnight here. I logged in for just a quick look, as I find that I've got to go back out because something got left behind. Logged in for a quick peek and only had time to read one post - yours. Great post, extremely well-expressed. By the time you're back, I'll have had a chance to more fully digest it and give a few thoughts - though none of them will better it, that I can tell already.

Enjoy your holiday, my friend, sounds as though it's well-deserved.

Many years,

Neil

There have been a few congregations of Bezpopovtsy in the USA and Canada - some of them were actually Old Ritualists by conviction but for several decades the emigration had little or no access to the Russian Old Ritualist Orthodox Church. When it became possible to obtain priests and even a bishop from Russia and Romania, these people rejoiced and no longer were in practice Bezpopovtsy. That does still leave a few Bezpopovtsy congregations, although reduced through natural attrition.

Back in Russia and Romania, some of the erstwhile Bezpopovtsy have joined the Russian Old Ritualist Orthodox Church in recent years, but there are still substantial groups of Pomortsi in particular. One community joined the Moscow Patriarchate while retaining the Old Rite.

It's hard to tell exactly what remains in North America. Sorry not to be more helpful.

Fr. Serge

Personally, I have little knowledge of or contact with Bezpopovtsy except for yearly visits to the Erie community and a 2007 visit to the Bezpopovtsy church in Suwalki, Poland. In both cases, my conversations were friendly and short. The nastavniks are dedicated, hard working clergymen who attend to the religious needs of their communities as best they can.

The Bezpopvtsy Erie church does distribute a monthly newsletter which can be obtained at:

Church of the Holy Trinity
Russian Old Believers
227 Holland Street
P.O. Box 4025
Erie, PA 16512

This congregation is what is left of the original Church of the Nativity Old Believers, most of whom joined ROCOR in 1983.
Now, that Russian Orthodox Church (Old Rite) is less friendly to outsiders and more insular - at least to me when I have visited. Maybe I ask too many questions. But, they have a good website and an excellent bookstore. See:

http://www.churchofthenativity.net