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[quote=Alice]Orthodox Information Center is not officially sponsored by any church. As far as I know it is the undertaking of an individual, and my impression has always been that he is somewhat of a fundamentalist mindset. I may be wrong.
On the other hand, if one can get past the site's obsession about 'heretics' ( ;) ), there is a good amount of religious information on that site and he seems to keep it quite up to date.
--Alice[/quote]
Alice, your knowledge and your ability to discern text is remarkable. I'm quite astonished.
I used to go that website ONLY to be told that apparently it is totally unorthodox and not really the best place to ask questions on orthodoxy.
I don't know what Orthodox Church the owner of that website belongs, but i get the feeling its like a small cult or something. I'm not sure.
What sort of information are you looking for?
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
If anyone has evidence of how the Orthodox Churches have been doing or at least saying something to move closer to reunion, then please, show. The major interface for the dialogue between the Church of Rome and the Orthodoxy Church is the "Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches." It meets frequently, often annually. The last Plenary Session was held in Vienna in September of this year. An Internet search will turn up much information on these interesting meetings.
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A simple Google search will turn up many recent statements by various Orthodox hierarchs (Belarus, Bulgaria, Romania, etc) urging the Orthodox and Catholic churches to unity. Some, as in the case of the Metropolitan of Belarus, seem to have a sense of urgency about them.
Because one doesn't hear this sort of thing from bishop's synods, and the Orthodox churches present themselves as "synodal", I never quite know what to make of this.
An interesting thing to note is that these statements are coming from Orthodox hierarchs actually from/in the East, where many claim the faith is more pure, not ones that are in the West.
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Can you give specific examples where Rome itself has imposed any latinizations upon the Eastern Catholic Churches? I know such is the case among many of the Oriental Catholic Churches, but to my knowledge Rome itself has never imposed any latinizations on the Byzantine Churches, and has consistently condemned said latinizations. Hi Philip, As I was reading through the thread, I happened upon your question. I saw the responses and wanted to add one of the Latinizations that seems to have been imposed upon us by Rome, and that is the annulment process. It is my understanding that the East never practiced annulments as the West did because there is a difference in theology regarding the Mystery of Crowning. Given the difference in theology, it doesn't make sense to me for an Eastern Catholic couple to have to obtain an annulment. After all, they were not the minister of the Sacrament, and as long as the priest has the proper intention, they are married. The pastoral solution of Ecclesiastical Divorces seems to make more sense. Plus, I have read more than once that the Eastern Catholic Code of Canon Law is a huge Latinization that should be corrected. Please correct me if I'm wrong about these two things. I'm sure they have been discussed before, so please feel free to direct me to another thread if that will answer my question. Also, I don't want to hijack the thread, so if this would be better dealt with in another thread, I'll be happy to move it or one of the moderators may do so. Thanks so much. Peace and blessings, Scott
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Yes, Rome imposed Latin marriage disciplines upon the Eastern Catholics in 1917, when the first Codex Canonorum was issued. Prior to that time, the Greek Catholics at least were largely governed by the Orthodox marriage canons. One consequence of this latinization has been a serious dilution of the Eastern concept of marriage as an eternal sacramental union that perdures beyond death, and not merely a life contract as exists in Latin theology. With the suppression of the Rite of Remarriage, and the three marriage per lifetime (one sacramental, two by economy), a lot of Eastern theology of marriage no longer makes sense.
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Glory to Jesus Christ! Yes, Rome imposed Latin marriage disciplines upon the Eastern Catholics in 1917, when the first Codex Canonorum was issued. Prior to that time, the Greek Catholics at least were largely governed by the Orthodox marriage canons. One consequence of this latinization has been a serious dilution of the Eastern concept of marriage as an eternal sacramental union that perdures beyond death, and not merely a life contract as exists in Latin theology. With the suppression of the Rite of Remarriage, and the three marriage per lifetime (one sacramental, two by economy), a lot of Eastern theology of marriage no longer makes sense. Dear Stuart, I have searched long online for Orthodox references to marriage as eternal but I have not been able to come across any. Could you or anyone else give me any good sources to better understand this aspect of Byzantine Theology? Kyrie eleison, Manuel
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I have searched long online for Orthodox references to marriage as eternal but I have not been able to come across any. Could you or anyone else give me any good sources to better understand this aspect of Byzantine Theology?
Manuel I don't know about online sources, but I can suggest "Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective" by John Meyendorff. He addresses this topic in the book. It's published by St Vladimir Seminary Press.
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Meyendorff's little book provides both an overview and a wealth of source materials.
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SCOBA has posted an interesting article about last month's paper put out by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation. http://www.scoba.us/articles/vision-of-unity.html
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Thank you for posting; it was very inspiring; Glory to God! It provides much insight as to how we can serve Christ's Church. The excerpts below piqued my interest. d) Liturgical Sharing: members of all the Churches in communion would be able to receive the sacraments in the other Churches; priests and bishops would express their unity in concelebration, and the heads of the other Churches would be commemorated liturgically in the diptychs. In addition, other forms of common liturgical prayer would be encouraged as a regular practice involving both our Churches.
e) Synodality/Conciliarity: the bishops of the reunited Churches would meet regularly in regional synods, which would regulate the common life and relationships of the Churches in a particular region and provide an occasion for mutual correction and support. Bishops of all the Churches would be invited to participate fully in any ecumenical councils that might be summoned. Synodality would operate at various levels of ecclesial institutions: local, regional and worldwide. Aside from episcopal structures of synodality, the laity would be active participants in this dimension of Church life.
f) Mission: all the Churches would share a common concern for what directly affects their unity, as well as for their mission to non-Christians. As sister Churches, they would also engage in common efforts to promote the realization of a Christian moral vision in the world.
g) Subsidiarity: following the ancient principle recognized as normative for well-organized human structures, “higher” instances of episcopal authority would only be expected to act when “lower” instances were unable to make and implement the decisions necessary for continuing union in faith. This would mean, among other things, that in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches, at least, bishops would be elected by local synods or by other traditional methods of selection. Those elected to major episcopal or primatial offices would present themselves to other Church leaders at their level, to their own patriarch, and to the bishop of Rome as first among the patriarchs, by the exchange and reception of letters of communion, according to ancient Christian custom. The bishop of Rome would also inform the Eastern patriarchs of his election.
h) Renewal and Reform. Ordered growth is essential to the health and well-being of the Church, and this means both continuity and change. For the Church, an essential aspect of this growth is renewal: the continual rediscovery of its fundamental identity as the Body of Christ, based on its experience of the Paschal Mystery, in the constant readiness to take on new forms of common life and witness and to adapt itself to new historical situations. In the words of a late medieval aphorism, “The Church is always in need of reform (ecclesia semper reformanda).” By making their catholicity concrete through full communion, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches would be realizing this life of reform in a new, undreamed-of way, and would be committing themselves to continuing renewal and growth – but now together. Life in communion with each other would be a life lived in readiness for a new Pentecost, in which people of many nations and cultures are formed anew by the living Word of God. Christ is amongst us! Fr Deacon Paul
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Yes, Rome imposed Latin marriage disciplines upon the Eastern Catholics in 1917, when the first Codex Canonorum was issued. Prior to that time, the Greek Catholics at least were largely governed by the Orthodox marriage canons. Can you prove this claim? I have asked the UGCC clergy, and they have told me this claim (that the Orthodox discipline of divorce was followed until 1917) is false.
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Yes, Rome imposed Latin marriage disciplines upon the Eastern Catholics in 1917, when the first Codex Canonorum was issued. Prior to that time, the Greek Catholics at least were largely governed by the Orthodox marriage canons. Can you prove this claim? I have asked the UGCC clergy, and they have told me this claim (that the Orthodox discipline of divorce was followed until 1917) is false. For interest's sake here are the grounds for divorce prior to 1917 adultery and a new marriage of one of the parties a spouse's falling away from Orthodoxy, perversion, impotence which had set in before marriage or was self-inflicted, contraction of leprosy or syphilis, prolonged disappearance, conviction with disfranchisement, encroachment on the life or health of the spouse, love affair with a daughter in law, profiting from marriage, profiting by the spouse's indecencies, incurable mental disease, malevolent abandonment of the spouse, chronic alcoholism Added, after 1917 chronic drug-addiction, abortion without the husband's consent.
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Yes, Rome imposed Latin marriage disciplines upon the Eastern Catholics in 1917, when the first Codex Canonorum was issued. Prior to that time, the Greek Catholics at least were largely governed by the Orthodox marriage canons. Can you prove this claim? I have asked the UGCC clergy, and they have told me this claim (that the Orthodox discipline of divorce was followed until 1917) is false. For interest's sake here are the grounds for divorce prior to 1917 [...] I asked whether it is true that the Eastern Catholic Churches in general, UGCC in particular, had followed the Orthodox discipline of divorce (whatever the specific grounds for divorce were) until 1917. The answer I got was that this is not true. Therefore I would like to see the source for StuartK's claim.
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Ask Father Serge and Robert Taft, among others.
Last edited by StuartK; 11/19/10 10:17 AM.
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