www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Do you view the Orthodox Churches as Heretical?

Hi Everyone,

I'd like to know how you view the Orthodox Church, and in particular, the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Let me explain why:

I had a friend that wasn't baptised. She didnt know God - AT ALL.
She lived in a town where there were no Orthodox Churches, and she really wanted to know God (I spoke to her about God, and sin, and the effects of it on the person etc)..

So, I told her: "Listen, get to know the Roman Catholic Church. They are brilliant. You'll love it. You'll be surprised at how amazing they are, how they serve etc."

She went back to her home town, and spoke to a Catholic Priest there. I forgot what he told her, but it was more along the lines of "Don't worry about reading the Bible.. just get baptised".

She wasn't impressed with this attitude.

She then came across the latin or Traditionalists. She loved them. They were truly practicing the faith. They had a great community, a brilliant and strong faith, and were very devout.

They were a good example for her.

I went to visit them on a retreat, and attended their mass. It was very similar to ours, except they had the filoque in there.

But what struck me was that people I introduced her to, and the latin priest there told her: "DO NOT get baptised in the Orthodox Church! YOU ARE NOT SAVED THERE. They are all heretics"

The weirdest thing was: this latin rite was even ex-communicated from the main Church.

Their priest told me "sorry, I cannot give you communion, because you are heretical".

Anyway, she ended up, out of her own choice, to get baptised in the Orthodox Church. It made more sense to her. This latin Church were even baptising catholics again who were already baptised.

But what hurt was being told by people whom you referred a non-believer to, that "you (as an orthodox) are not saved".

I never really looked at the Catholics as saved, or not saved. I didnt judge anyone. I know that because you have sacraments that you THEREFORE have the fullness of the Christian life. The same with the Coptic Orthodox Church.

After reading a lot of threads on here, I just want to know: Who here thinks that we are heretical and "not saved?".

I'd love to know - because I think it would be foolish to assume that there is mutual respect between the Churches when there isn't.

That's a false sense of love. Although the Churches are divided, it doesn't mean that Catholics are all going to hell.

Also, with respect to Coptic Christians, if our Church doesn't believe or acknowledge your baptism (which was the case 20 years ago), it doesn't mean that EVERY single MARRIED catholic couple are living in adultery unless they get married in the Coptic Church. This is preposterous.

I was thrilled that this young lady had decided to dedicate her life to Christ and a life of Holiness, and yet, saddened by the words spoken by her friends who said that she shouldn't consider the Orthodox Church at all if she wanted to be saved. WOW!!!

Its mind boggling.

Does anyone here agree with this latin Church? Do you feel that we are heretics and that we are not saved?

I read the thread on the Catholic priest (Fr. Gabriel Bunge) who became Orthodox. I must tell you, a few of the posts there REALLY upset me from users who think we are "less" or "lacking" in anything.

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/351948/Fr.%20Gabriel%20Bunge%20(OSB)%20has%20be#Post351948

I don't know why he chose to become Orthodox. But if that girl decided to be Catholic, I'd have been overjoyed for her - except for the fact that they looked at me as if I was from satan!

How?? I got her into the Catholic Church anyway!!! Can you imagine how hurtful any of this is???

I don't have the exact links on hand... but officially the Catholic Church views the Orthodox church as a "real" church. In fact a Catholic could (in theory) take communion at an Orthodox church as they have a valid priesthood and are apostolic.
I would take any "latin catholic" who isn't part of the Catholic Church with a grain of salt. They are essentially just another protestant sect.

Yes, beware of Latin traditionalist schismatics. They do not speak for the Roman Catholic Church.

Rome, in our age, would refer to the Orthodox churches as "in schism" but not I think "heretics" in the classical sense.

I certainly do not view the canonical Orthodox Church as heretical. Monophysites are perhaps another matter, although the Oriental Orthodox Churches are not comfortable with the term "Monophysite". There are, unfortunately various sects who call themselves "Orthodox" and/or "Catholic"; it is not clear what they believe and they are certainly not part of the historic Church.

Fr. Serge

Are there any real monophysites or nestorians today--I mean aside from Protestants, who frequently depart de facto from Chalcedonian theology into one Christological error or another (not to mention neo-Arianism and outright gnosticism from time to time)?

Bless Father,


The Oriental Orthodox Churches condemn moniphysitism and Eutychianism as herectical.

I think Stuartk brings up a good point on the issue of Protestantism and how older heresies seem to make a comeback. (I am not sayingall Protestants do this) I think this is a symptom of not being in communion with an Apostolic Church.

I personally love St. Cyril of Alexandria and his Christology and have developed a fondness of late for Severus of Antioch.

Also, I think all the Orthodox Churches (Oriental and Eastern) are not heretical and I pray for the day that the sad divisions of the Church will finally be resolved and unity restored!

Wishing all a Blessed Philips Fast.

The Roman Catholic Church does not consider Orthodox, Eastern or Oriental, as heretics. Consider this:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).


The churches to which this applies are Orthodox and Polish National Catholic Churches. This is followed by an admonition:

Christians in these churches should, of course, respect their own church’s guidelines regarding when it would be permissible for them to receive Communion in a Catholic church.

As I understand this, a member of an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church who has no access to church in his or her own tradition could request to receive the sacraments from a Roman Catholic priest and expect that request to be granted.

These instructions are generally included in every RC missal and can be found in the pews of most churches.

You should not feel badly that a traditionalist sect claimed you were not saved and were going to hell. They generally believe that everyone who is not with them, including all authentic Roman Catholics, are going to hell.

I am sorry your friend first approached such and ignorant and dismissive RC priest. There are way too many of these guys just going through the motions. Had she contacted the priest in our church she would have been welcomed, introduced to what is called the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) and given a thorough and orthodox (small o) preparation for baptism.

I pray that all works out for your friend. But please don't confuse these Traditionalist cults with the Roman Catholic Church.

Exactly. You can hardly accept a group that rejects Catholic teaching and authority, and whose clergy reject their vows of obedience, as having anything authoritative to say on behalf of the Church they reject . . .

Thank you all for your posts!! I found it very comforting.

Stuart, I have NO idea who is Monophysite. I find it hard to believe that anyone today is monophysite, even protestants. I don't know which part of Christ being born a man is hard for anyone to understand? The Word of God took FLESH! His Divinity UNITED with His Humanity, without alteration, without mingling without confusion.

Yes, I pray for the day that we will be One Church again. It will help the protestants go back to their roots as well.

Lol.. bless them - they all always tell me "But the words Catholic and Orthodox Churches are not in the Bible". lol

hahahaha

That's so sweet they think this way, its a kind of a childish ignorance in a way.

For me personally, and this is just an opinion, the best thing that could happen to the Catholic Church is if it reunited with Orthodoxy and allowed priests to get married. Your Churches would be packed. You need good servants who focus on the life giving sacraments in the Church. Our entire focus IS on the Eucharist.

If Oriental Orthodox Christians and Catholics were ONE tomorrow, you'd have welcomed into the Catholic Church the most zealous and devout die-hard Christians in the world - it would honestly do your Christian Communities a world of good.

I'm just thinking that if we ARE allowed to have communion and benefit from your sacraments (On the condition that there are no Coptic Churches available in our area), then obviously there's no reason for the people's to be divided - nor the Churches. Unity must begin in our hearts and minds first with mutual love and respect.

I just hope people don't see us as heretics because we are not under the Pope of Rome. I'm sure the Pope will one day figure out a way to solve this issue. He has a lot of options available to him.

I'm Greek Catholic and it really chaps my hide when Catholics or pseudo-Catholics call our Orthodox brethen heretics. Yep, watch out for the "H" word. It's use tends toward ouright hostility and can be ugly & spiteful. Regaining unity will be a wonderful thing but not a panacea...I can't say I perceive myself to be "under" the Pope of Rome but rather united with him. The meaning of that union with the Pope of Rome: well I haven't fully figured it out but I believe it.

The Coptic Orthodox and Catholic have my respect and admiration; the troubles they are subjected to grieve me, and besides I like the Coptic Liturgy.

There are a lot of things I believe but don't fully understand.

Of course, Rome has never really acknowledged all the implications that flow from stating the Orthodox are not heretics and recognizing them as true Churches. A classic example of Orwellian double-think.

Does't a lot of the 'double-think'(from both East and West alike) have to do with issues of linguistics, translation and the meanings of terms and words in the context of the Church and how we understand those words in our common usage?

I was always taught, from the Orthodox perspective, that we are in 'schism' with each other - but many lay people will toss around the term 'heretic' or 'heterodox' with impunity. In modern, American language those are 'loaded' words.

We really ought to start avoiding this "H" word - ESPECIALLY between us! I was born Orthodox. If someone asked me to describe the nature of Christ as a 10 year old, I'd have been labelled as a heretic by both the Catholic and orthodox denominations.

We cannot keep on doing that to each other. If there were any misunderstandings in Chalcedon, I think a Revised Council on Chalcedon could clearly clear these disputes up.


I really believe actually that unity will be a cure for most of the world's problems.

Did you not know my friend? It says in the Bible that '...on the day of the Pentecost..' the Apostles were gathered together in unity and prayer.

They were united.

12 Apostles. United.

This unity is what we need. It was through their unity that Christianity spread.

Western Europeans and Americans have this love-hate relationship with their faith. They hate to be IN their faith, but they love to be surrounded by it. Don't they?

Can you imagine if the protestants, Catholics and Orthodox became 1 Church again? I really see this as a way for shaping and sustaining our own civilization.


Excellent point. That's why the Pope of Rome has SO many options to him. We would be happy to be united with him also.


With Turkey knocking on the door of the EU, begging to come in, it would be wise to be united at this point, or before this happens. The very country that was pivotal in shaping Christendom is playing her part again, but this time, in spreading Islam. This is really a make-or-break situation for us.

If Turkey joins the EU, and we are divided; with the state the Catholic Church is in, coupled with the zealous aggressive secularism and the Catholic Bashing protestants, we will have a hard time against the forces that wish the demise for our Church.

But if we are united, even if our numbers are small, it doesn't matter. God will work through us. But how can God work when we have Catholic community against Catholic Community? When Protestants think they have the God-given right to attack the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church because of some ignorant driven agenda they have?? How will God work in us?

How can we testify God's love for mankind if there is no love and respect between the various members in the Body of Christ??

The VERY union of the Trinity is pure love between each hypostasis in the Trinity. Unity should be part of our facon d'etre, as Christians, but alas, its not.

Thanos:

They also don't understand that the Church functioned for hundreds of years without the Bible as we know it. And in the Eastern Churches the Scripture was leavened throughout the liturgical services and books so it was all read and absorbed if one attended the liturgicval services all year long.



sielos:

It really gets me, too, but you have to understand centuries-old ignorance that still exists. In my own pilgrimage, if it weren't for some supportive Orthodox priests, I'd have abandoned the Faith decades ago in the midst of the melt-down in the parishes I lived in after Vatican II. And the fact of the matter is that none of them had any polemics to add, they looked on at what was happening to the people in the pews and shook their heads in sadness for the most part.



Stuart:

The problem here, as you and I understand, is that the Western approach isn't comfortable with Mystery. It's squishy, slides over and outside the lines, and can't be corralled into neat boxes or definitions. Have to be comfortable with Mystery and and the idea that no one's definitions completely define the Mystery of God coming among us and the Holy Spirit working where He wills--even when it's outside our own little empires.



Thanos888:

Exactly. As I've said before, united, we are like a bundle of pencils--can't break a bundle; divided, we all get broken individually.

In Christ,

Bob

Theophan,

I really hope His Holiness Pope Benedict sees the urgency of this unity. In the 1st instance, as Sielos mentioned, we should be united with Rome, and not necessarily "under" Rome. Regardless, I think once we are united, if a Coptic Christian happens to find himself IN Europe, then he or she IS under the Bishop of Rome. Its that simple.

I'll be under ANY bishop where I'm living.. whether its Rome or Cairo.

You just have to make sure that Patriarch Shenouda, Bartholemew and Pope Benedict don't live in the same city and I'm sure we'll all be fine. (lol).

Its not that I'm interested in "numbers" or making the Church "bigger" - not at all. I'm interested that the country i Love with all my heart is not islamized: that my Children can grow up in a country where they can be free to practice their faith.

On top of that, look at the story of Assia Bibi - the Christian Pakistani woman that has been sentenced to death for not converting to Islam (that's basically all she's done wrong). Many Orthodox Christians have no idea about her story. We only focus on the problems of Orthodox Christians, and Coptic Orthodox Christians, at that. This is not right.

If one member of your family is in pain, surely you all care about them. You don't just care about yourself.

We would have loved to know the sufferings of other Christians, but because we have no bishop in Pakistan, nor congregation, how would we know?