www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Comparison of RDL to Orthodox Liturgies

Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as I am a cradle Roman Catholic. Would it be possible to summarize the major differences between the RDL and the Divine Liturgies used in the other canonical Orthodox churches in America?

Secondly, my take on the Byzantine RDL in comparison to the RC Novus Ordo is that the former does not appear (to me, the ignorant) to be nearly as radical a departure from what preceded it as was the abrupt lurch from the Tridentine Mass to the Novus Ordo. This said, I do not by any means wish to minimize the passionate sensitivities of those affected by this change.

The seemingly MAJOR differences are mostly among the minor differences already found between the Byzantine Orthodox/Catholic liturgies. In a word, be preparesd for the onslaught!

The RDL is not a defining document in that regard. Various litanies are and have been ommitted from the current Ruthenian practice (the subject of the RDL) other Byzantine Catholic churches retain some or omit others. Perhaps the greatest disagreement with the RDL centers around the translation and its use of "inclusive" language, among which is a hotly debated (though minor) change in the Creed, one which I personally don't agree with.

Except for the usage of the typica vs antiphons, and the commemorations for the Pope and different bishops, the liturgies are remarkably similar, though the RDL is usually noticably shorter, even when sung slowly, than a typical Orthodox liturgy of the same Sunday or even weekday (yes there are weekday Orthodox liturgies to be found).

That said, there are over 22 pages of postings in the RDL forum that will give one a headache or three worth of reading through. I would suggest reading them first, though keeping in mind the strong anti-RDL sentiment among the posters of this board.

As to the RDL vs Novus Ordo, I'll keep clear of that one, not being a fan of the Novus Ordo as celebrated by the majority of RC churches.

Steve,
(a cradle Byzantine Catholic)

The following is a brief listing of some of the major problems with the Ruthenian Revised Divine Liturgy:

-The texts are incomplete [the translators left out the parts of the Divine Liturgy that they didn’t like]

-The translation method was faulty [the translators used the “dynamic” / “paraphrase” method of translating ideas rather than words]

-The translations were made from the wrong texts [the official Ruthenian Church Slavonic books were not the basis for the translation because they were considered unworthy, a 1950 edition of the Greek text was considered superior]

-The translations are full of politics [The secular political agenda of neutering the texts from gender was followed. The bishops have openly rejected the Liturgical Instruction and directives like Liturgiam Authenticam.]

-The rubrics were changed to “modernize” them

-Customs in the Latin Rite Novus Ordo were copied and mandated [the major one is the mandating the priest to pray many of his prayers out loud for education purposes]

-The newly mandated music is, at best, klunky.

-The RDL prohibits the ordinary form of the Byzantine Liturgy, which is the standard for all other Orthodox and Greek Catholic Churches

Well stated!

Dn. Robert

This has been most helpful. Thank you all.

Yet, with due respect for all of you who rue the RDL and its departure from the form of the liturgy that preceded it, the change still does not seem to me (a RC visitor to Byzantium) to be nearly as radical as was the replacement of the Tridentine Mass with the Novus Ordo. I can still easily recognize a RDL as being a beautiful Eastern prayer. However, the abrupt/overnight change in the RC Church with the Novus Ordo was a train wreck (... from reverence to hippies, guitars and balloons overnight).

Anyway, if it is any consolation I don't think that as much damage was done to your church as was done to ours, which after 40 years we are only beginning to repair.

And if I may continue my naivete' perhaps, perhaps the RDL has awakened a new appreciation for your liturgy that was previously dormant. I would not despair over this, as the tumult may give rise to a renewal in your faith as it has and is doing in the RC Church.

... and speaking of hippies and balloons, how do I get rid of this ridiculous smiley face when I submit a post? I need something more along the lines of Boris Badenov.

Easterners are generally not favorable to significant change of any kind; one must remember that for some even the change of the Julian Calendar to Gregorian is/was a serious bone of contention.

Memory is clouded, but it may have been the Russian Orthodox bishop Ignatius (Brachianinov), considered to be a Saint on the Orthodox calendar, who said: "Resist every least change". Here, here!

Dn. Robert

As I was coming into young adulthood, the RC Novus Ordo reformers claimed emphatically that what they were changing were the things that were not important. Statuary, altar rails, old hymnals and the like were all pitched into the landfills. Yet, I could never get an answer to my question "... if these things are so unimportant, why are you going to so much trouble to change them?" Only now are we beginning to dig out of this mess.

And you will be digging for at least a generation or two!. All pastors in the Roman Rite over the age of 60 should be forced to step down, so they can do no further harm with their 60's and 70's hippy mentality!.

Many of the aging 60's generation priests are turning around for the good. So many honestly did not know any better. And we are gaining traction rapidly, not just in the externals but in the lives of the faithful. There is much good, much hope.

As a neophyte student of Byzantine history, I read with horror about the sacking of Constantinople by the Crusaders. This demonic blunder (carried out against the explicit orders of the Pope for them not to attack Christians) weakened Byzantium to the extent that it would soon succumb and be swallowed by Islam.

It was similarly a tragedy for the RC to sack its Tridentine Mass and the spirituality that accompanied it. I say similar because it divided the Western Church, weakening it to the point that it became easy prey for the enemies of God. Pope Benedict is laboring mightily to repair the greatest damage ... and we are seeing fruits of this in parishes throughout the country.

So back to the Revised Divine Liturgy. Has this widened the gulf between Eastern Catholics and Orthodox ... or do they care?

Peter,

Welcome to the forum

If you use the 'full' reply mode (can't recall the precise term), rather than the 'quick reply' mode, click the 'smilie' icon in the row immediately above the dialogue box and you'll be afforded a full range of faces. You can then employ whichever you prefer, so as to let your true mood shine (scowl, etc) through.

Many years,

Neil

addendum: hmm, that didn't work - now I'm confused. Will check further and get back to you

I don't have a dog in that fight, so it's not really my place to say, but Fr. Robert Taft's position on Novus Ordo seems to make a lot of sense to me (essentially, the fault lies with abuses to Novus Ordo, not the rubrics themselves, which are just fine).

But I don't think Eastern Christians will see much equation between the two, because they were very different circumstances, very different changes, enacted for entirely separate reasons.

I think the Eastern Christians that would find any resonance with the Tridentine issue like you describe are Roman Catholics who now attend Eastern Catholic liturgy but remain in their thoughts, hearts and actions "old school" Roman Catholics with no real love of the East, other than being as close as they see to a regularly accessable Tridentine Mass still in communion with the Church.

So I don't think "hey, you don't have it so bad" wouldn't really mean much.

I think you will also find many ex "old school Roman Catholics" as jjp put's it, joining Orthodox parishes as well. I wouldn't totally agree with jjp that their is no real love for the East. Some stay, and some leave, once a TLM is provided. But many stay, especially those that attend Orthodox churches. It's like a breath of fresh air for many.

I didn't mean to paint too big a brush, certainly many RC's who miss the Tridentine Mass and have moved to an Eastern Catholic church truly love and respect the east. It was just an observation I had.

I think the distinction that is made when one petitions to switch rights from Latin to Byzantine is a good one (or vise versa I suppose). Switching rites out of frustration or negative feelings towards one's rite is not condoned, but switching rites out of a love for and attraction to another rite of course is. It's a subtle but important difference.

Of course, you can attend an Eastern Church and remain Latin rite for decades and skirt around that distinction, and that's kind of what I'm getting at. "Having your cake and eating it" so to speak.