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Hi, I am reading into the traditions of my Eastern Rite and Orthodox brethren (I'm traditional Roman Rite). I was wondring about the rites of the Divine Liturgy, does it vary between Rite(such as Byzantine Catholic and Ukranian Catholic) or between Ddifferent Orthodox Churches?

Ian:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Welcome to the forum. There are many good posters here who may be able to answer your questions.

The Byzantine Churches are properly referred to as sui juris Churches in the Catholic Communion, not "rites." The reason is that Byzantine and other Eastern Churches have not only their own way of serving the Divine Liturgy, but also a different spirituality that is part and parcel of their whole life in Christ.

With that said, I leave you in the hands of our brethren here.

Bob
Moderator

[quote=theophan]Ian:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Welcome to the forum. There are many good posters here who may be able to answer your questions.

The Byzantine Churches are properly referred to as sui juris Churches in the Catholic Communion, not "rites." The reason is that Byzantine and other Eastern Churches have not only their own way of serving the Divine Liturgy, but also a different spirituality that is part and parcel of their whole life in Christ.

With that said, I leave you in the hands of our brethren here.

Bob
Moderator [/quote]

Hi, thanks for responding. I am relatively new at learning about my Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brethren so I was not aware of the correct terminology. So, are there different forms of the Divine Liturgy between the different (Eastern) sui juris Catholic Curches? Or between different Orthodox Churches such as the Greek or Russian and the Oriental Orthodox like the Copts? If so, what are these differences?

IAN:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

There are many sites on the net that can answer your questions about the Divine Liturgy in each of the Eastern Churches.

You might google the Syrian Orthodox Church where there is a good description of their Divine Liturgy including pictures taken at various times; also vestments, etc. The Armenian Orthodox Church also has a site under the Eastern Diocese in the United States complete with pictures of the "Badarack."

http://www.epilgrim.org/syrian_liturgy.htm
http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/

There are also sites that include pictures of various Byzantine Divine Liturgies including both the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic practices. There are variations to Byzantine practice from national Church and even to parishes. The same holds true for the practices of our Eastern Catholic brethren and there is a separate section devoted to the changes made to the DL in the Byzantine Catholic Church in America.

Enjoy.

Bob

Within the Eastern Orthodox tradition, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is the most commonly used Liturgy during the course of the church year. In Great Lent, and on several other feasts of the year, the older Liturgy of St. Basil the Great is used in its place. (Externally the liturgies are similar, but there are longer prayers in St. Basil's liturgy and the Epiclesis prayers are, for lack of a better term, more detailed.) As Theophan points out, there are local (albeit minor) regional and national differences among the external practices of the Liturgies within Orthodoxy. However, they are such that regardless of one's national church affiliation and regardless of the liturgical language being used, an Orthodox Christian would recognize the ritual wherever he or she might be worshiping. Unlike the Church of Rome, we do not regard these differences as being distinct 'rites' but rather as regional variants. This is true within Eastern Catholicism as well although some in Rome might disagree. Here is an example from ACROD, the Orthodox 'equivalent'(again, I use the term only for lack of a better descriptive word) of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America or the Slovak Greek Catholic Church in Europe.

http://acrod.org/multimedia/video/liturgicalservicevideoarchives/cathedralvideos

Hope this helps.

The Divine Liturgy is absolutely beautiful, Eastern Christians both Catholic and Orthodox have such a wonderful tradition. Although I am Roman Rite, I would prefer to attend the Divine Liturgy (in a Church in Communion with Rome) over the Novus Ordo we have here in St. John's. I'm not saying the Novus Ordo is invalid but the Divine Liturgy seems more reverant.

IAN:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

The current Roman Liturgy can be served with great reverence, depending on the priest's formation. There have been many misinterpretations of what was supposed to happen and they manifest themselves in the way that Liturgy is served. However, that kind of formation seems to be on the way out, at least in the way the new priests I've met have been trained to serve.

There is an interesting custom in the Oriental Orthodox Churches that may serve to emphasize the reverence that needs to be part of a priest's life as he serves. In the Coptic, Syrian, and Armenian Orthodox Churches, a priest goes into a 40-day retreat after ordination and only after that time does he seek permission from his bishop to serve the Divine Liturgy. The Copts usually serve this retreat in an Egytian desert monastery from what I've been able to find and the Armenians often spend it at their headquarters in Armenia.

Bob

What is interesting to me as a lifelong Latin Catholic is not the difference between the liturgies used in the Eastern, Western and Oriental traditions. I think anyone who is seriously paying attention would see that in all the main elements, every Divine Liturgy has the same elements in the same sequence. Ultimately, the purpose of the Divine Liturgy is to provide a vehicle for the real presence of Jesus Christ to be received by the believers. The formula for accomplishing that is the same one that has existed from the earliest days of the church.

I personally, very much, appreciate the use of chant in the Eastern Churches but I also know that in my own Latin parish the liturgy is served extremely well with great reverence and completely in accordance with the rubrics. Unfortunately, too many people do not have the same opportunity, but I know our own seminary has begun to place a much higher value on preparation of priests to properly serve the liturgy.

As for the difference between the different "rites" in the Latin usage (I know a lot of people here hate that word) and the "regional variations" in Eastern usage, I think it is important to remember that there is theological gap between Eastern and Western Catholics that does not exist between different Orthodox jurisdictions, and even between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches. Both Catholic sides seem to be fairly quick to point this difference out and using the term "rites" is part of that vocabulary of separation.

Someone posted somewhere else on this site that as Eastern Catholics we are supposed to practice the orthodox traditions to the upmost of orthodoxy - including The Divine Liturgy - and remain in union with The Holy See to show Orthodox Churches that it is possible to be in union and orthodox.

The way I am looking at this is we are orthodox who have solved the Schism.

I think we need to remember that about the Divine Liturgy.
That is is Orthodox in nature and tradition.

One more thing.

It is said of the Divine Liturgy that is is "Heaven on Earth" and must have come from God and not by hands of man

correct me if I'm wrong - I don't remember where I read that or heard that but I think that is what was said.

Ian A., the largest difference you will notice is the chant/music(some even use pipe organs! fyi instruments are not supposed to be used in the Eastern Orthodox tradition), the musical differences would be so much so you may find it hard to follow a liturgy in rural Greece if you're used to an American Eastern Orthodox parish of Russian tradition for example.

there is a very large misconception that modern Eastern Orthodox are exact replicas of their forebears 500 years ago (time of Union of Brest), let alone 1000.