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Inventing a liturgy for purely uniatistic purposes that did not previously exist (it most certainly is not a demonstrable revival of any extant liturgy from 1054) to "grab" those adhering to a Western liturgical tradition is what it is. Uniatistic. And there are those within the various EOCs who agree.

Diak, I won't disagree with you. And you are right that there are varied opinions on the issue in the EOC. I am personally surprised that no one has brought up the western rites in the Antiochan orthodox Church. The one or two that i have visited used the Tridentine latin mass with appropriate changes made in the creed and other places to bring the service in line with Orthodox Holy tradition.

Certainly the Antiochian Church has no current shortage of intrajurisdictional difficulties without this question of the "Western Rite".

Moving this to E-W, as we've passed out of the realm of the news article and into a general discussion of WR w/in Orthodoxy versus ER w/in Catholicism

Many years,

Neil

Just a few thoughts from a sinus clogged head this morning. This topic has taken a lot a bandwidth both here and elsewhere on the net lately, yet for most of us, it is a purely academic discussion as few, if any,of us have any real experience with of knowledge of 'Western Rite' Orthodox.

For those of us coming from either an Eastern Catholic background or an Orthodox background which has roots in Eastern Catholicism, it certainly can provoke a strong range of opinion as we have first hand experience in living as 'outsiders' in either a western or eastern world due to the lasting impacts of the Unions.

It does seem to me that attempting to 'recreate' a form of Western worship that may or may not have occurred prior to 1054 is as fruitless as trying to recreate an Orthodox liturgy of the same period. For most of us, be we of the west or the east, we 'know' our faith as it exists in the present. While the Latin rite has undergone much change and turmoil since the mid 1960;s, most Eastern Catholics and Orthodox share a sense of relative 'permanence' in our Liturgy and prayer. For many that means 'things must have been sort of like they are forever.' For some that means that any other expression of faith differing from ours must be 'wrong' or 'corrupt.'

Hence the effort to 'recreate' that which does not now exist. It is sort of like the Japanese 'scientists' in the news who claim that they can 'clone' a mammoth in three or four years by combining ancient mammoth DNA with certain aspects of the modern elephant's DNA. They may get an animal, but it really won't really be a mammoth or an elephant.

I fear that underlying the efforts of some in Orthodoxy to seek western converts by recreating a 'rite' is a core belief that there is neither grace nor salvation in current western expressions. Hence the need to 'create' something 'new' while calling it something 'old.'

Any eventual reunion of the ancient sees of the Apostolic Church will not involve the 'unconditional surrender' of one side or the other. A General U.S. Grant (i.e. Unconditional Surrender Grant) is neither a pope nor a patriarch in that regard!

That being said, I do not doubt the sincerity of those who seek comfort in such new 'old' rites nor in the hearts of those who facilitate them. I am just not sure that in the 'big picture' it adds any hope for those of us who pray for the eventual reconciliation of our churches.

David, my friend,

I agree wholeheartedly with the above, as well as all you said prior to it.

Bashing WR Orthodoxy, while it may seem to some ECs as a tit-for-tat response to derision that our Churches received for being Uniates, serves no purpose except to perpetuate a cycle that was dying out. (It's been a while since I've heard Uniatism thrown out as the one of Catholicism's worst sins, even on polemical sites.)

If this form of worship, based on the Latin Tridentine Mass or based around some other Western liturgical form, serves to bring persons to Church to worship our common God, persons who otherwise would not be participating in the spiritual life of an Apostolic Church, then I say 'go for it'. And while you're pursuing that route with these converts, the rest of us - Catholic and Orthodox - can and should get back to worrying about and resolving the issues of our own ecclesia and doing our own evangelization.

Many years,

Neil

Having attended a ROCOR Western Rite Liturgy, I will offer for others what I have mulled over myself.

The uniformity of rubrics and liturgical expression in the West is a very recent development. I have been told that this stems from the Roman Catholic Council of Trent.
-I was told that there have been attempts from various Roman Catholic orders to reconstruct and use older Liturgical Rites that were suppressed. This has been granted on occasion for experiment.
-There other pre-schism Sacramentaries in the West besides the Roman one. So I don't see a problem with utilizing them if one is Western Rite.

Holy Orthodoxy already has a multiplicity of Liturgies use on a regular basis. Even more have been approved for use upon request. There is no problem if a Western Liturgy is blessed for normative use because western liturgies were used pre-schism.

An Orthodox Presbyter should be neither Western Rite or Eastern Rite. Rather, they celebrate either one or the other (or in some cases both).
-There should be no real division into this false idea of Eastern Rite and Western Rite priests. A priest is a priest is a priest.
-All priests should attend seminary and receive proper formation. No exceptions.
(of course, seminaries should offer courses in western liturgics, rubrics and music)
It is important that the calendars are in-sync.

DMD and Irish Melkite,

Great posts! Thank you.

In some of the quarters I have been in RCC, bi ritual priests at best are viewed as neither fish nor fowl, at worst with suspicion. I have seen the same thing occur in the EOC.