The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Fr. Abraham, AnonymousMan115, violet7488, HopefulOlivia, Quid Est Veritas
6,181 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (AnonymousMan115), 1,814 guests, and 134 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,526
Posts417,648
Members6,181
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
Christ is born!

This video shows Christmas celebrations in Beirut by various bishops - the Maronite Archbishop of Beirut Boulos Matar, the Melkite Metropolitan of Beirut Joseph Kallas, the Chaldean Bishop of Beirut Michel Kassarji, as well as the Armenian Catholic Patriarch Nerses Bedros XIX at the end, whose seat is also in Beirut.


I also found this Christmas Mass schedule on the website of the Armenian Catholic church in Sydney, Christmas and Theophany are given separately.
http://www.armeniancatholic.org.au/common/christmas%202010%20program%20olota.jpg

So, I wonder why Christmas and Theophany are separated in the Armenian Catholic Church and when it happened?

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
The most likely reason for the separation of Christmas from Jan. 6 is the influence of Roman Catholicism upon Armenian Catholics (i.e., wanting to be like them).

I do remember seeing a reference to the separation of dates in Archdale A. King's The Rites of Eastern Christendom.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Quote
So, I wonder why Christmas and Theophany are separated in the Armenian Catholic Church and when it happened?

Does the Armenian Apostolic Church celebrate Christmas and Theophany as one feast?

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
Yes, on January 6th. They are the only Christian church that commemorates both events on the same day...or should I say, still commemorates both events on the same day.

The Armenian Church of Jerusalem, following the Julian calendar, celebrates on January 19th.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by griego catolico
The most likely reason for the separation of Christmas from Jan. 6 is the influence of Roman Catholicism upon Armenian Catholics (i.e., wanting to be like them).

I do remember seeing a reference to the separation of dates in Archdale A. King's The Rites of Eastern Christendom.

Thank you! I found Volume 1 of the book avaliable online, it is rather interesting, although it turned out that the Armenian rite is in Volume 2, which i can't find online. It looks rather useful book smile

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by ag_vn
Originally Posted by griego catolico
The most likely reason for the separation of Christmas from Jan. 6 is the influence of Roman Catholicism upon Armenian Catholics (i.e., wanting to be like them).

I do remember seeing a reference to the separation of dates in Archdale A. King's The Rites of Eastern Christendom.

Thank you! I found Volume 1 of the book avaliable online, it is rather interesting, although it turned out that the Armenian rite is in Volume 2, which i can't find online. It looks rather useful book smile

ag_vn,

Vol. 2 can be found at abebooks and alibris, but at a cost - generally from about $175 and up, although 1 bookseller (on abebooks, I believe) is offering both vols. for a combined price of about $185 - binding condition is a bit rough though, as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,525
Likes: 26
Member
Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,525
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Yes, on January 6th. They are the only Christian church that commemorates both events on the same day...or should I say, still commemorates both events on the same day.

The Armenian Church of Jerusalem, following the Julian calendar, celebrates on January 19th.

It is ironic, because to look at the Creches of most churches one could suppose that Christmas and Epiphany were simultaneous, even though St. Matthew's Gospel place at least two years between them.

That is one reason why I am fond of the German "Advent Pyramids" which place Magi and Shepheds on different vertical layers.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Global Moderator
Member
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Yes, on January 6th. They are the only Christian church that commemorates both events on the same day...or should I say, still commemorates both events on the same day.

The Armenian Church of Jerusalem, following the Julian calendar, celebrates on January 19th.

It is ironic, because to look at the Creches of most churches one could suppose that Christmas and Epiphany were simultaneous, even though St. Matthew's Gospel place at least two years between them.

That is one reason why I am fond of the German "Advent Pyramids" which place Magi and Shepheds on different vertical layers.

Now you did it, Pastor Thomas! You force biggrin me to repost my comments from an old thread on one of my favorite topics regardimg the Nativity - the visit of the Magi. (A subject on which I was versed early by the German nuns who taught us in grammar school - all devoted admirers of Father Francis X Weiser, SJ, who wrote extensively on German Christmas traditions.)

Originally Posted by "Irish Melkite"
I think "manger scenes" as they are typically erected should be considered as man's effort to visualize an event about which we have very limited information available, in that they likely compress events into a single scene. (Note that, traditionally, many folks don't add the Magi into the scene until January 6, the Feast of the Epiphany.) I am no biblical scholar, so please forgive me any mis-statements in what follows.

Luke speaks of the shepherds being informed by the angel that the birth occurred that very day and he says that they found the Baby in a manger. Matthew's account of the circumstances involving the Magi is less precisely fixed. His Gospel describes the birth as occuring during the time of Herod and, by inference from their meeting with Herod, the Magi's visit in the same reign - but does not make the two events simultaneous.

If you think about it, most of those traveling to Bethlehem for the census likely left shortly after and lodging would have been more readily available. One can surmise that Mary, Joseph, and the Baby had relocated to someplace more hospitable than the cave or stable, as soon as possible after Jesus' Birth. So, Matthew's description of the Magi visiting a "house", rather than the stable, might be explained in that respect, if it did not occur on the day of His Birth.

Certainly, if the date of Epiphany is considered to have any real-time significance, two weeks would have passed before the Magi's arrival. That it might have been even longer could be inferred from Herod's caution in ordering the killing of all infant boys aged two or younger, to be certain that he covered all possibilities.

We'll never know with complete certainty, as least not in this life, when the Magi came, just as we don't know precisely how many they were in number. Caspar/Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthazar are traditionally named, but folks have put other names to them. The Ethiopians speak of Hor, Basanater, and Karsudan; the Syrians nominate them as Larvandad, Hormisdas, and Gushnasaph; to the Armenians they were, anciently, Kagba, Badadilma, and Melkon.

More diverse than the names are the various numbers of them; they are depicted in various representations and traditions as being as few as 2 and as many as 14. The number 3 is most likely ascribed from the number of gifts they offered, although another early legend puts it to the fact that they represented all humanity in the three great races of Sem, Cham, and Japhet, with one being Caucasian, one Black, and the third Oriental.

Saint Bede the Venerable, in a work ascribed to him, Collectanea et Flores, records the legendary names, as well as their appearances, and the gifts of each:

Quote
The first was called Melchior; he was an old man, with white hair and long beard; he offered gold to the Lord as to his King. The second, Gaspar by name, young, beardless, of yellow hue, offered to Jesus his gift of incense, the homage due to Divinity. The third, black complected, with heavy beard, was called Baltasar; the myrrh he held in his hands prefigured the death of the Son of Man.


Many cultures have folktales that tell of someone (other than the expected entourage of guards, servants, etc.) who was supposed to travel with the Magi, but was prevented from doing so, by some circumstance or other, usually with consequences. Such "wannabe" Magi are usually associated thereafter with gift-giving, at either Christmas or Epiphany, in an endless search on their part for the Child.

Along this line, in Italy, one finds "La Befana", a kindly old witch. Legend says that she lived alone in the hills and noticed a bright star in the night sky. Later, 3 richly garbed men stopped and asked directions of her to Bethlehem. When she told them that she didn't know of any such a place, they invited her to join them in their search; she declined, as she was too busy.

After the Magi left, Befana suffered regrets about her choice, remembering her own child, who had died very young. She baked cakes and cookies for the Baby, took her broom (to help the Baby's mother clean), and set out to find the caravan. When she became lost and tired, angels appeared and gave her broom the power of flight, to speed her search. She roamed the world, hunting for the Baby and still does. Each year, on the eve of Epiphany, whenever Befana comes to a house where there is a child, she flies down the chimney to see if it might be the One she seeks. It never is, but she leaves a gift anyway.

Henry van Dyke, an early 20th century writer, crafted a short story, "The Other Wise Man", which related another legend. In it, Artaban, a fourth Magi, was late in arriving to meet the others, who had already left. By the time he came to Bethlehem, they and the Holy Family had left to flee Herod's wrath. Artaban wandered the earth for 33 years, searching and using his gifts (jewels) to benefit others. When he encountered Christ, face-to-face, on Golgotha, his fortune was gone and he wasn't able to ransom Him. As Christ died and earth was shaken by a quake, Artaban was struck by a stone falling from a building. As he lay dying, he heard a voice from Heaven, saying, "What you did for each of these, you did for Me."

Babushka, an elderly Russian folklore character, appears in two variants of such tales. One mirrors the Italian tale of the initially selfish and later repentant La Befana; the other is a variant on van Dyke's story, except that Babushka reaches the stable, sorrowing that she has given away all her gifts and is consoled to find that what she did for others, she did for the Baby.

Among both the "Saint Thomas Christians" of India (Malabarese and Malankarese Catholics and Orthodox) and the Chaldeans and Assyrians (where the Magi likely had their roots), legend says that the Magi encountered the Apostle Thomas some forty years later, when he arrived in their lands to evangelize. According to tradition, the three, all then elderly, having been brought together again by a reappearance of the Star, were converted, ordained, and elevated to the episcopate, dying shortly afterwards. According to the Archdiocese of Cologne's Proper of the Divine Office for the Feast of the Translation of the Holy Relics of the Sainted Magi, they were buried in "the city of Sewa in the Orient." The relics of the Magi were brought to Constantinople in the fifth century, transferred to Milan 100 years later, and taken to Cologne in 1164 by the Emperor Frederick Barbarossa.

The feasts of Saints Caspar, Melchior, and Balthazar are kept in the Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Chaldean, Assyrian, Malabarese, and Malankarese Churches on January 1, 6, and 11, respectively.

The magnificent Cathedral of Cologne was constructed specifically to provide a suitable repository for their relics and it is formally styled The Cathedral of the Three Kings.

The reliquary, largest in the Western world, can be seen here - http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/threekings/jpegs/threekings.jpeg.

The Troparion of Christmas in the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, used in Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite and in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, reads in part:

Quote
Your birth, O Christ our God, has shed upon the world the light of knowledge; for through it those who worshipped the stars have learned from a star to worship You, the Sun of Justice, and to recognize You as the Orient From On High. Glory be to You, O Lord!


There's a good discussion of traditions associated with the Magi in the online (early 20th century edition) of the Catholic Encyclopedia at Magi.

A recipe for Dreikönigskuchen or Three Kings Cake can be had here - http://www.germanculture.com.ua/recipes/blxmas12.htm. I highly recommend it

The placement of the Magi in the stable or cave scene itself*, whether on Christmas Day or Epiphany, is almost certainly a convenience to human understanding. It offers the symbolic statement that Christ's birth was for all mankind, the poor and low-born shepherds and the rich, high-born, and educated Magi, as well as the choirs of Heaven. It would be much more difficult to convey that same understanding if the Magi's arrival were separated entirely from the visualization of Christmas morning.

*In iconography depicting the Nativity, the Magi are never present at the cave, but are always seen approaching at a distance.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The reliquary, largest in the Western world, can be seen here - http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/threekings/jpegs/threekings.jpeg.

shocked Whoa! I have seen photos of the reliquary before, but this is the first time I see this photo which shows part of the three skulls. Thanks for posting it.

Mount Athos claims to have the three gifts. [johnsanidopoulos.com]


Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
ag_vn,

Vol. 2 can be found at abebooks and alibris, but at a cost - generally from about $175 and up, although 1 bookseller (on abebooks, I believe) is offering both vols. for a combined price of about $185 - binding condition is a bit rough though, as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you, Neil!

Many years smile

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
With Armenian Catholics celebrating Christmas on Dec 25, it also affects the date for the feast of the Presentation of the Lord in the Temple. Armenian Catholics celebrate it today while Armenian Apostolic Christians celebrate it on February 14.

Also, according to the Armenian Catholic liturgical calendar [aroriaavedarane.org], the feast of Saint Blaise is celebrated on February 3rd, the same date in the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar. I suppose there will be AC parishes that will have the blessing of throats tomorrow in honor of St. Blaise.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,505
I had the great privilege to venerate their relics in the Cathedral of Cologne while I was a deacon in Germany.
Stephanos I

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
The relics (head, arm, and leg) of Saint Blaise are kept at the cathedral in Dubrovnik, Croatia. Each year on his feast day they have a magnificent procession:

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by griego catolico
With Armenian Catholics celebrating Christmas on Dec 25, it also affects the date for the feast of the Presentation of the Lord in the Temple. Armenian Catholics celebrate it today while Armenian Apostolic Christians celebrate it on February 14.

Oh, that's interesting. I did't think about it. Thanks smile

Originally Posted by griego catolico
Also, according to the Armenian Catholic liturgical calendar [aroriaavedarane.org], the feast of Saint Blaise is celebrated on February 3rd, the same date in the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar. I suppose there will be AC parishes that will have the blessing of throats tomorrow in honor of St. Blaise.

Is the feast celebrated on February 3rd by the Armenian Orthodox Church, too? I know Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine rite Catholics celebrate it on February 11th.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
G
Member
Member
G Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,520
Likes: 10
Originally Posted by ag_vn
Is the feast celebrated on February 3rd by the Armenian Orthodox Church, too?

Looking at Armenian Apostolic liturgical calendars from the past few years, I see that his feast has jumped around a bit:

July 23, 2005
January 16, 2006
January 16, 2007
July 19, 2008
January 17, 2009
January 16, 2010
January 17, 2011


Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0