www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II

I did not say they served at the altar. Their ordination rite infact does not mention service at the altar as a deacon's does. They were however ordained and communed in the altar which indicates they were considered to have received Holy Orders.

Ooppss my mistake. More than one wife....crazy. I think sometimes faster than I write.

Blessings.

The deaconess was ordained by Cheirotoneia, using almost precisely the same rite as that for deacons. And Deacon Lance is correct: they received communion at the altar, in the same manner as the deacons (i.e., first the Body, then the Chalice, received from the priest or deacon), immediately after the deacons. Subdeacons, ordained by Cheirothesia, receive communion outside the iconostasis.

Deaconesses had no liturgical function, but rather assisted at the baptism of women, and had a special responsibility to look after widows, consecrated virgins and children. The liturgical role of the deacon emerged rather later than his primary role as "waiter upon tables"--it is first and foremost a ministry of service, which ministry the deaconess performed as well as the deacon.

Yes really. It is a breach of our own canons as well as a breach in tradition. The more we split off from the traditions that we are descendant from the more difficult it is for the Orthodox to see us as legitimate and equal. If we do things simply "because the Romans do it" then we will never be able to re-unify with our Orthodox brothers.

Methinks the Orthodox will never accept us ECs as legitimate and equal to them, no matter what we do or don't do. Tant pis.

The main thing is whether or not GOD will accept us.
He's gonna judge us all. Let's all get ready. It's later than most of us think - me included. Hospody, pomiluj i spasi nas.

No matter. It's our job to try, because some day we are going home to them.

Heaven is our true home and our Orthodox brethren are striving mightily to get there, as are we ECs. I have no plans to go "home" to them in this life but I'll rejoice when we and they arrive together in heaven.

They are not paradigmatic for us any more then we are for them. Both of our repective Churches are rather messed up; and having altar girls serve @ the DL is one of the milder examples of our messed-up condition. The Orthodox have their own bogey-men.

Both we & they have the job/task/necessity of ongoing repentance and through it our Churches will become more and more what the Lord wants us to be.

As more than one Greek Catholic hierarch has noted, the existence of the Greek Catholic Churches is anomalous, and on the blessed day when full communion is restored between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches, the reason for our existence independent of our Orthodox Mother Churches will have ended. As Bishop John Michael of the Romanians likes to say, our vocation as Greek Catholics is to disappear.

In the meanwhile, to be faithful to our vocation, we must constantly demonstrate to our Orthodox brethren that it is possible to be fully Orthodox while in communion with the Church of Rome. Anything that detracts from our fidelity to the Orthodox Tradition must therefore be rejected and suppressed, and the authentic Tradition restored. Girl altar boys is a good place to start--and might inspire the Latin Church to return to the fullness of its own Tradition.

Christ is in our midst!!

One can only hope. But I'm afraid that this has become so ingrained among the Latins that it would cause a real revolt to put a stop to it. At present, any priest is "free" not to allow it at the Liturgies he serves, but the reality is that he'd be in immediate trouble with his bishop if he chose to do so. And that doesn't even begin to address what he'd have to address with his congregation--members of which would probably bolt immediately for another more liberal parish.

The real agenda here is the continued dissent from the Church's Tradition--both East and West--of ordination being reserved to men only and the theology behind it. Secular feminism has sunk roots deep within the culture and those roots have penetrated the Church's culture as well. It's interesting that one can be sidelined and ostracized rather quickly in a parish setting if the topic comes up and one tries to defend the Church's teaching and Tradition on this point.

Bob

Actually, it was the policy of Bishop Keating of Arlington, VA not to allow girls to serve at the altar. The policy was continued by his successor, Bishop Loverde, at least at the beginning of his tenure. I do not know if he presently enforced that policy. Keating was known for his doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical conservatism. Though he did not allow celebration of the Tridentine rite during his episcopate, he did insist that the Novus Ordo be celebrated according to the rubrics, and allowed no shennanigans on his watch.

I believe he forbade the Novus Ordo because he did not want traditional Roman Catholics "ghettoized" within his diocese, but spread out across all his parishes. He did, intentionally or not, "ghettoize" the most radically progressive elements into two parishes in the Diocese, which may have had a beneficial effect on the rest of his congregations.

Stuart,

If I read you correctly here, you're saying:

• 1) Deaconess was indeed an ordained ministry
• 2) Initially, there was little difference between the roles of deacon and deaconess, since they were both
  Originally Posted by StuartK

  ... first and foremost a ministry of service, which ministry the deaconess performed as well as the deacon.
• 3) The prohibition of women on the altar during services is either of later origin, or it initially allowed exceptions

This evidence certainly suggests that women are neither categorically excluded from Holy Orders per se, nor are they categorically excluded from entering the altar during services per se.

Now, I'm not sure what all this means for the Church, but ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

You are incorrect about (3): Deaconesses never served at the altar; for most of the service, they remained outside the sanctuary, only approaching the Holy Table to receive communion, then exited the sanctuary once more. In that sense, they did not differ from non-celebrating deacons today, who vest and receive at the Holy Table after the celebrating deacon(s).

There is no evidence that women deacons ever had a liturgical function, though they did assist at the Rite of Baptism for adult women, which did not take place in the sanctuary, but rather in a separate baptistry. As catechumens stripped nude before entering the waters of regeneration, this was thought to be pastorally prudent.

This doesn't make sense. Bishop Keating wants his priests to celebrate the Novus Ordo according to the rubrics, but he forbids the Novus Ordo in his diocese?

Did you mean to say -as you put it- "Tridentine rite"?

But they were permitted inside, even if only briefly. That was the only point I was trying to make.

It is not at all uncommon (and in fact is the norm in at least one Australian Russian Orthodox women's monastery) for nuns to be altar servers.

There are however some differences with how the nuns serve compared to boy altar servers.

1. They don't vest in the sticharion.
2. They only ever go in and out the iconostasis door on the women's side of the church to carry candles in processions etc.
3. They stay on that side of the sanctuary (which can make it awkward to kiss priest's hands when giving them objects).

Additionally, it is quite common for Abbesses to go inside the sanctuary for a variety of reasons (including serving liturgy) - at the Greek women's monastery in Geelong, Victoria, the abbess regularly goes into the sanctuary and prepares a hand censer to cense the church and people in the absence of a priest.

As the office of Deaconess and that of Abbess have some historical parallels, and in Greece the revival of the role of Deaconess seems to be viewed as an extension of the Abbess's role, it doesn't seem to be too much of an extension to assume that deaconesses can go into the sanctuary area.