www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II

Yes, really! I have quite a few friends amongst Orthodox clergy and laity. This is viewed as a serious problem when it occurs. What is really distressing is that there are clergy who take the law into their own hands, and violate it with impunity. The Liturgy does not belong to the priest. It belongs to the whole Church. If they have a problem with the way that it is prescribed to celebrate, perhaps they should consider going elsewhere.

Dn. Robert

It's detrimental to Stuart Koehl-Greek Catholic relations. The day girl altar boys show up in a Melkite parish is the day I know the Eastern Catholic mission has failed, and I go over to the Orthodox.

Pavloosh,

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but now I see how wrong I was. Other than your feelings, have you any rational basis for your beliefs about this subject?

Pavloosh:

I, too, have Orthodox friends who have attended weddings and funerals in our parishes and who have been scandalized by both young girls serving at the altar and women walking up to the altar and removing Eucharistic vessels to distribute the Holy Mysteries. These are two things they insist are major obstacles to re-establishing communion. It is not only orthodoxy but also orthopraxy that matter.

Bob

Stuart,
This seems a bit extreme. Since they are already common place in the Latin Church why would their appearance at a Melkite parish be any different? You are already in communion with churches that allow them. I would probably leave the parish if I was a member there, but not sure about totally jumping ship.

I think the last time I was in a Latin Church and received communion was some time in 1997. But, as I said, what the Latin Church does is its own business. When an Eastern Church deserts its authentic Tradition, it's time to go. As Father Robert Taft said, unless we are committed to being as authentically Orthodox as possible, we have no real reason to exist as Churches distinct from the Latin Church. Since my sensibilities are not at all Latin, if I cannot be Orthodox in communion with Rome, I will be Orthodox out of communion with Rome.

Makes sense to me.

I being an Orthodox Christian whom entered communion with Rome still am scandalized when I see girl Altar Servers. I went to a Roman Parish with my wives family and a woman carried the Gospel book to the Altar like a Roman Deacon does. She walked up to the Altar, I thought she was going to kiss it, and placed it there. My wife saw the look on my face and asked if I was ok.

I think that before reunion happens this will need to be addressed. It has nothing to do with women or their holiness but the established canonical Tradition of the Church.

Curiously, does this "Latinization" "scandalize" more than others might? If so, why? I'm not making any point, it's a genuine question to anyone.

I'm not sure it is a "Latinization," as it remains a novelty in the Latin Church, and is not in keeping with the Latin Church's own tradition. Indeed, previous Papal pronouncements call it an 'evil practice.'

...but Stuart, altar girls have also served in Orthodox parishes [stnina.org] .

Then where would you go?

Nelson, wouldn't the parishioners of this Roman parish be as equally scandalized by bringing your wives to Mass?

Do you live in Utah?

OK, I couldn't resist.

You meant to say "..with my wife's family.." Right?

God bless,

GC

Someone is sure trying...


http://www.stnina.org/online-journal/feature-articles/altar-girls

Not any more I guess. The Chaldean Catholics are blessing both men and women readers and subdeacons.
http://www.kaldu.org/2010/Images/2010lectorblessing/index.htm


I do not think this can be maintained at least for the Byzantine Church. The ordination rite for deacon and deaconess both start after the Anaphora with the prayer: "Divine grace, which always heals what is infirm and completes what is lacking..." The deaconess had hands layed on her by the bishop in the altar, was vested with the orarion, and was communed within the altar.

I am not for women priests or servers, but I think it dishonest to say the Byzantine deaconess was a minor order all evidence to the contrary.

I am not for that either.

What you have said is correct, but I have never seen any evidence that shows that deaconesses served the altar during the liturgy. A deaconess is not a deacon, and women in the ancient Church were never permitted to serve the altar liturgically in a parish.

P.S. - I am not opposed to restoring the order of deaconess within the Church. But I am opposed to pretending that deaconesses were just female deacons. The role of a deaconess was to instruct women, and to serve them in situations where it would have been inappropriate for a man to meet with a woman. Deaconesses also assisted in certain sacramental rites when the modesty of women was involved (e.g., naked baptisms, etc.), but they did not serve at the altar.