www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Help: Russian Byzantine Catholic? Or just Russ-Orth or Rom-Cath?

Hello,

I am new to this forum and hoping for some suggestions in defining (the practice of) my faith.

I was raised (novus ordo) Roman Catholic but through my own research and experience in recent years I have been significantly drawn first by my family towards tradition Roman Catholicism and later by my spouse towards Russian Orthodoxy. I am particularly drawn to the eastern liturgy, but I am also convinced of papal primacy (if not supremacy). I am also quite familiar with the arguments of legitimacy on both sides, but even so, I am convinced that Roman Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy are not mutually exclusive because both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are of one Apostolic Faith, and it is for this reason I believe unity of the Eastern and Western Churches is inevitable. Not to mention that unity is my greatest hope simply for the fact that I have come to respect and adore aspects of both traditions! I have decided, therefore, that the reasonable compromise, for my situation and in accordance with my beliefs, is to become a Russian Byzantine Catholic. But my question is how to realize that faith/practice?

I believe it is vitally important for a person and his/her family both spiritually and sacramentally to be a member of a church/parish in order to nurture and develop his/her faith. Fortunately where I live, I am able to go to a Latin Tridentine Mass, a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Liturgy, and a Russian Orthodox Liturgy, so I alternate going to each one. I am not, however, able to go to a Russian Byzantine Catholic Church. My spouse is (and so far will be nothing but) Russian Orthodox. My children were baptized Roman Catholic but are still very young. If we go to the Russian Orthodox Liturgy, neither I nor my children can receive Communion. If we go to the Roman Mass or Byzantine Liturgy, my wife cannot receive Communion.

Can a person in my situation legitimately live a Russian Byzantine Catholic Faith? If so, how would I go about doing it? Or would it be best, all things considered, to just pick a side (Catholic or Orthodox) and just go with it?

Any suggestions and/or criticisms are welcome!

rimlyanin:

Christ is in our midst!!

Welcome to the forum. There are many good people here who may be able to help you with your discernment process. However, there is nothing better than having a person-to-person talk with your RC pastor and the RO priest. You need to include your spouse, too. It's sad that you did not explore this topic prior to your marriage, because this is an important area. Internet fora may offer advice, but there is nothing more important than a talk with the live people who will be your spiritual leaders.

Bob
Moderator

well, you wont find in the literal sense a Russian Byzantine Catholic parish unless you go to Russia, and you wont find a Russian Orthodox church in the literal sense unless you also go to Russia or live in an area with a large amount of Russians I suppose

Your local Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic parish will not be too different from local Eastern Orthodox counterparts of whatever north Slavic origin, and going there you can practice as many Russian devotions as you wish, they wont force you to venerate only Ruthenian saints or require you to practice only Ruthenian customs.. they also use Church Slavonic as a liturgical language like the Russians, though you will most likely encounter only English (same goes for Eastern Orthodox parishes in USA) and Canon Law allows your wife can take communion both there at the Byzantine parish and at a Roman Catholic parish if she wishes.

edit: As what the moderator suggested, I agree 100% with him, best to discuss this with real people and might I add you talk to the local Byzantine Catholic priest as well

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I understand your love of the Russian Church. I for a time was a parishioner at a Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia parish.

There are a few Russian Byzantine Catholic Parishes in the United States. I can think of four off the top of my head (one New York, one in Denver, and two in California).

Our Lady of Fatima Russian Catholic Church [byzantinecatholic.org]

There is not an Eparchy for Russian Byzantines in the United States and they fall under the local Latin Bishop.

I would also suggest going to the Ruthenian parish and speaking with their priest. ( I still venerate Greek and Russian Saints in my personal devotions and attend a Ruthenian parish, so there is no problem with following the Russian Practice in a Ruthenian parish)


To follow this and what Theophan said I would strongly suggest to pray and speak with your Roman Catholic priest, the Russian Orthodox priest, and also a Greek Catholic Priest (Ukrainian or Ruthenian) but foremost I would talk to your wife about this. I am a newlywed (she was Roman and I was Byzantine) and we agreed the best thing for our family was to worship together in the Byzantine Church. (She has since become very active in the Byzantine Catholic Church!) So I am a big believer in worshiping as a family.


This is hard decision that only prayer and fasting along with discernment with a spiritual father can solve (and talking with your wife) but if you truly believe in papal primacy then breaking communion with Rome would be difficult.

If you have not already done so, read Vladimir Soloviev, The Russian Church and the Papacy (original title: Russia and the Universal Church), published by Catholic Answers. http://shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=205&cat=23&page=1

If you live in or near Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, or New York City, there are Russian Catholic parishes in each of those cities.

This website has a national list of Byzantine Catholic parishes: https://www.byzcath.org/index.php/find-a-parish-mainmenu-111

Ah, I see from your profile you live in Maryland. I should have looked at that first. Duh'oh!

I am a former Russian Catholic who is now Russian Orthodox.

I'd prefer not to go into the whole complexities of my reasons here, firstly because it is a personal thing, secondly I don't want to be seen as proselytizing, thirdly, because I don't want to start arguments.

You're welcome to send me a private message if you want however.

I should just note that is the case from the Catholic perspective, but it is not the case from the Orthodox perspective - Orthodox are expressly forbidden from communing in other jurisdictions, whether that jurisdiction allows it or not. If you want to be on good terms with the Russian Orthodox priest, don't do this.

I must also suggest praying to the first Exarch of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, Blessed Leonid Feodorov.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Welcome to this wonderful Forum.


I'm glad to hear that you are welcomed at the Russian Orthodox parish. I am in a Russian Catholic parish, but we are a VERY tiny parish of commuters and are not able to have some services. A number of us, including myself, go to several of the Russian Orthodox parishes for these other services and, thanks be to God, we have been given a friendly welcome in these Orthodox parishes. Personally I would be a very different Catholic if Divine Liturgy on Sunday was the only time I was worshiping in community.

My concern about what you describe is about your taking turns in Latin Church services. I appreciate that this is your heritage. But as a family I am concerned with combining the East and West. There are significant differences East and West, not only very different spirituality but the Latin Church and the East are on different calendars. And I don't mean just for Pascha but on any given day we are recalling different saints and we have different readings, and we have a very different focus on those feasts that do come on the same day, such as Epiphany/Theophany.

I come from the Latin Church. I am part of the RCIA team in a Latin parish, I was trained by the Latin Diocese as a catechist. I often go to Holy Mass at the local Dominican Priory and in the parish where I'm a catechist. But in my devotions I follow the calendar including the fasts and feasts of my Eastern Catholic parish, and there are times when this is a real challenge. I wouldn't want to have children trying to combine these by rotating week to week where they worship. That doesn't mean you couldn't go to the Latin Church with your parents and your family from time to time.

I would myself agree with the suggestion that you meet with the Ruthenian priest. I'd be surprised if there aren't other Latin Catholics and mixed Latin+ECC marriages, maybe other Catholic+Orthodox marriages in that parish.

It's really important you are taking this seriously now while your children are still very young. I wonder what kind of counseling you received from both the Catholic and the Orthodox when you were involved in your marriage preparation. Were there people then who seemed especially sensitive to the challenges you would be facing and might be of some help now?

I know there are other Catholic+Orthodox couples on this Forum who hopefully will share their wisdom.

Again, welcome.

rimlyanin:

Christ is in our midst!!

Our brethren have brought a lot of sound advice to your questions and concerns. I, too, have wondered about your marriage preparation because this is a big area that is usually discussed in depth when people of different Churches come together. Usually the Catholic can ask for a dispensation to have the Crowning in the Orthodox Church so that the Orthodox member can still receive communion. You don't say what the circumstances were.

Having had your children baptised in the Catholic Church, I wonder about the Orthodox priest's response to your wife's promises that all children would be baptised in the Orthodox Church--usually a requirement in the marriage prep time.

But my brethren here have come together on the point that you need to get together with your spouse and get some sound advice from her and your spiritual advisors.

MOST importantly, however, is that you are praying together in your domestic church, your home. If there is no foundation in this critical area, you run the risk of building the house on sand.

You have to understand, too, that this is not a choice of chocolate and vanilla. There are very real differences in the choices that you make. You must be sure that you pray about all this so that consciences are not compromised and faith weakened.

In Christ,

Bob

[quote=theophan]
However, there is nothing better than having a person-to-person talk with your RC pastor and the RO priest. You need to include your spouse, too.
[/quote]

You are right. I have included my wife, she has spoken to a RO priest...we have not yet spoken to a RC priest but will do so.

[quote=theophan]
It's sad that you did not explore this topic prior to your marriage, because this is an important area.
[/quote]

We did, but obviously not enough.

[quote=theophan]
Internet fora may offer advice, but there is nothing more important than a talk with the live people who will be your spiritual leaders.
[/quote]

I agree, but my hope by posting on this forum was to get some good 'anonymous' advice.

[quote=Litvin]well, you wont find in the literal sense a Russian Byzantine Catholic parish unless you go to Russia, and you wont find a Russian Orthodox church in the literal sense unless you also go to Russia or live in an area with a large amount of Russians I suppose ;)
[/quote]

That is my problem. I have decided that I want to be as much a part of my wife's faith without converting to Russian Orthodox and/or moving to Russia.

[quote=Litvin]
Your local Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic parish will not be too different from local Eastern Orthodox counterparts of whatever north Slavic origin, and going there you can practice as many Russian devotions as you wish, they wont force you to venerate only Ruthenian saints or require you to practice only Ruthenian customs.. :) they also use Church Slavonic as a liturgical language like the Russians, though you will most likely encounter only English (same goes for Eastern Orthodox parishes in USA) and Canon Law allows your wife can take communion both there at the Byzantine parish and at a Roman Catholic parish if she wishes.
[/quote]

I have rather enjoyed going to the Ruthenian Liturgy. Very little Church Slavonic is used, but they appear to be quite open to various Byzantine Rites. However, that (or any Catholic) church/parish is out of the question for my wife: She is forbidden by the Russian Orthodox Church to receive Sacraments, regardless (or maybe in spite of :/) Catholic Canon, and any eastern european non-orthodox church does not sit well with a person from Russia.

[quote=Nelson Chase]
There is not an Eparchy for Russian Byzantines in the United States and they fall under the local Latin Bishop.
[/quote]

Yes, I discovered that in my research, and that is why I posed the question of whether I can legitimately practice as a Russian Byzantine Catholic without even a parish church to attend.

[quote=Nelson Chase]
[quote] If so, how would I go about doing it? Or would it be best, all things considered, to just pick a side (Catholic or Orthodox) and just go with it? [/quote]

This is hard decision that only prayer and fasting along with discernment with a spiritual father can solve (and talking with your wife) but if you truly believe in papal primacy then breaking communion with Rome would be difficult.
[/quote]

That is what I am realizing...

[quote=Gabriel]If you have not already done so, read Vladimir Soloviev, [i]The Russian Church and the Papacy[/i] (original title: Russia and the Universal Church), published by Catholic Answers. http://shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=205&cat=23&page=1
[/quote]

I have not yet read it, but it is on my list! Funny you should mention him, as I am currently reading Solovyov's [i]The Crisis of Western Philosophy[/i], which by the way is not an easy read! In fact my research about Solovyov is part of why I am inquiring into the possibility of being a Russian Byzantine Catholic.