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Stuart posted the following on another thread (in response to my question, If Eastern Catholicism is the "best of both", does it follow that Western-Rite Orthodoxy is the "worst of both"?). I thought it worth its own thread: Western rite Orthodoxy is problematic, in that it is fully reflective of the "uniate" model. First, the WRV is not an independent Church, but a ritual adjunct of an Orthodox jurisdiction. Second, it has not been allowed to retain the fullness of its authentic Tradition (e.g., liturgical "byzantinizations" such as the inclusion of an epiclesis in the Roman Canon and the insertion of a Byzantine-style pre-communion prayer). Third, it was established for the express purpose of proselytizing Western Christians--understandable in the context of the time in which it was formed, but not acceptable in the present age, particularly in light of the Balamand Declaration's repudiation of anything that even smacked of proselytism--a renunciation that swings both ways. There's a lot that could be responded to here, and I'll be interested to hear other people's opinions. Regarding my own opinion, I would say this: I agree with you that WRO is very different from Eastern Catholicism; but I don't agree that the differences prove that WRO is more "reflective of the 'uniate' model" than EC is. "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "worse". As for "Third, it was established for the express purpose of proselytizing Western Christians", I'm not at all convinced that there's more proselytism in the one direction than in the other.
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Western rite Orthodoxy is problematic, in that it is fully reflective of the "uniate" model. First, the WRV is not an independent Church, but a ritual adjunct of an Orthodox jurisdiction. Second, it has not been allowed to retain the fullness of its authentic Tradition (e.g., liturgical "byzantinizations" such as the inclusion of an epiclesis in the Roman Canon and the insertion of a Byzantine-style pre-communion prayer). Third, it was established for the express purpose of proselytizing Western Christians--understandable in the context of the time in which it was formed, but not acceptable in the present age, particularly in light of the Balamand Declaration's repudiation of anything that even smacked of proselytism--a renunciation that swings both ways.
The Western rite does not resemble any of the larger, organic movement of Eastern Orthodox into union with the Church of Rome (Brest, Uzherod, Alba Julia, the election of Cyril IV), but smaller, more aggressively missionary Churches such as those founded in Bulgaria, Poland, Belarus, and so forth.
So it's really a comparison of apples and oranges. From my Orthodox point of view, Stuart is right on the money in his observation. Interesting. In my experience, most Orthodox would strongly disagree with the claim that WRO is "reflective of the 'uniate' model" (especially if you put the word 'fully' in front).
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I don't have a polemical interest one way or the other, but I find the comparison tenuous.
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Interesting. In my experience, most Orthodox would strongly disagree with the claim that WRO is "reflective of the 'uniate' model" (especially if you put the word 'fully' in front).
Most Orthodox don't know the technical definition of "uniatism", and tend to think that it is something only Catholics could do. Kind of like the Justice Department's approach to racial discrimination cases in which whites are the victims, not the perpetrators.
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First, the WRV is not an independent Church, but a ritual adjunct of an Orthodox jurisdiction. This is always an interesting question (well, to me it's interesting). On the one hand, I'm of the opinion that the Orthodox have the right to establish a Western-Rite jurisdiction (particular church) if they wanted to. But on the other hand, I'm really rather glad that they haven't, since I think it would make Catholic-Orthodox relations more difficult.
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I have trouble picturing a very small group, comprised primarily of former Episcopalians, causing trouble for anyone. Bishop or no bishop. Their experience and motivations I think are also extremely different than historical union movements, one being this isn't even a union movement.
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I have trouble picturing a very small group, comprised primarily of former Episcopalians, causing trouble for anyone. Bishop or no bishop. Their experience and motivations I think are also extremely different than historical union movements, one being this isn't even a union movement. Well said.
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What I'm interested to know, is regarding western theology in western orthodox group.
Knowing quite hostility and suspect of Byzantine theology to non-Byzantine theology, how accepted is western theology in western rite orthodoxy?
Is it becoming a ghetto where the larger body of orthodoxy play 'don't care don't know' status?
Is it Byzantinized to the effect that western rite orthodoxy is no other than Byzantine with Latin vestments?
Is it becoming a hybrid, keeping only those areas the larger orthodox accepts or tolerate and adopt Byzantine position on areas where the Byzantine objects?
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What is western theology?
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Western rite Orthodoxy is problematic, in that it is fully reflective of the "uniate" model. First, the WRV is not an independent Church, but a ritual adjunct of an Orthodox jurisdiction. Second, it has not been allowed to retain the fullness of its authentic Tradition (e.g., liturgical "byzantinizations" such as the inclusion of an epiclesis in the Roman Canon and the insertion of a Byzantine-style pre-communion prayer). Third, it was established for the express purpose of proselytizing Western Christians--understandable in the context of the time in which it was formed, but not acceptable in the present age, particularly in light of the Balamand Declaration's repudiation of anything that even smacked of proselytism--a renunciation that swings both ways. Stuart is spot on. If anything WO is even more "uniastistic" in that an entire liturgical corpus was invented for the intended larger-scale proselytization to Orthodoxy (this ritual did not exist before the 20th century), which did not occur. Union because of political factors/ecclesiological currents is one thing relying on the received tradition; inventing liturgy for proselytization takes this to another level.
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It's a uniasticity contest!
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I meant "uniatistic" as most likely understood (I am writing with a broken humerus that is not humorous) but am not surprised by the "uniaspastic" response.
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What is western theology? what is eastern theology? (personally I think of Greek Christianity and the particularities to it, though I suppose others think of Syrian or Alexandrian Christianity) edit: anyways i dont feel threatened by them - the only Catholics who would join with them would probably be disenfranchised lefebvrists and other traditionalists of similiar opinions, if Episcopalians want to keep their prayer book and be in communion with eastern orthodox and the eastern orthodox bishop allows this, why not - us Catholics are doing the same for Anglicans in England afterall
Last edited by Litvin; 02/09/11 01:39 PM.
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It's a uniasticity contest The winner has a higher modulus of uniasticity?
Last edited by StuartK; 02/09/11 01:40 PM.
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What is western theology? what is eastern theology? He asked you first.  But on a serious note, it makes me a little sad the way ECs and WRO have such low opinions of each other. Why can't everyone see that "different" doesn't necessarily mean "worse"?
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