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Originally Posted by StuartK
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It matters to the Copts, because from what I can see they are never going to accept the Chalcedonian definition that Christ is one divine person with two natures, divine and human.

Why should they have to, if they agree that Christ is true God, Christ is fully human, and Christ is One? In our various agreed Christological statements, the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East were not required to accept the Chalcedonian definition, only an orthodox understanding of the nature of Christ, as expressed in their legitimate theological idiom.

We are talking past one another. I am not interested in forcing them to accept Chalcedon. I am talking about the Copts resuming communion with us without us denouncing it. I don't think they are willing to do that unless we do.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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We'll never know until we try. For them, it's a nationalist thing, more wrapped up in the idolatry of St. Cyril than anything else.

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Some additional light may be shed on this whole discussion through a brand new book just out on miaphysite Christology in an Ethiopian perspective. You may read details of it here:

http://easternchristianbooks.blogspot.com/2011/02/ethiopian-christology.html

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I am talking about the Copts resuming communion with us without us denouncing it. I don't think they are willing to do that unless we do.

I think it is more of the other way around that the Eastern Orthodox would require them to accept the council to enter communion with her.

I also don't believe the Oriental Orthodox would require Catholics and Eastern Orthodox to denounce the latter 4 councils but not force them (the Oriental Orthodox) to recognize them as Ecumenical.

Recognizing each others Orthodoxy does not mean submission by one side or the other but understanding that the Oriental and Byzantine (and other Chalcedonian traditions) understand the union of the Divine and human natures of Christ differently- miaphysite and Dyophysite- and both are Orthodox and say the same thing: Our Lord Jesus Christ is one and at the same time is perfect God and Perfect man.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 02/10/11 01:13 AM.
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We'll never know until we try. For them, it's a nationalist thing, more wrapped up in the idolatry of St. Cyril than anything else.

I don't believe idolatry is the right word. They do have a strong reverence for St. Cyril and his Theology but we could say that most Particular Churches tend to have certain Fathers whom they often invoke.

I also don't think it is a nationalist thing since the Oriental Orthodox are not just the Copts.

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I would love to read this book!

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Dear Friends,

Official statements of the EO/OO Commission are here:

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/official.php

The Oriental Orthodox have accepted all the proposals and recommendations...the standstill is 100% with the Eastern Orthodox, of which many still insist that we officially accept 7 Ecumenical Councils.

My personal opinion...it is a joke for us to talk seriously of union between Orthodox and Catholic when the Orthodox cannot even find unity amongst ourselves. The EO/OO unity should be a slam dunk. There is literally ONE issue that separates us...and I am convinced it has been FULLY resolved. And yet, how many years now after the statements in the link above? It's sad...

In Christ,
Fr. Kyrillos


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Second Agreed Statement (1990)

The first Agreed Statement on Christology adopted by the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, at our historic meeting at the Anba Bishoy Monastery, Egypt, from 20th to 24th June 1989 forms the basis of this Second Agreed Statement on the following affirmations of our common faith and understanding, and recommendations on steps to be taken for the communion of our two families of Churches in Jesus Christ our Lord, Who prayed "that they all may be one".

1. Both families agree in condemning the Eutychian heresy. Both families confess that the Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, only begotten of the Father before the ages and consubstantial with Him, was incarnate and was born from the Virgin Mary Theotokos; fully consubstantial with us, perfect man with soul, body and mind (nouj); He was crucified, died, was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day, ascended to the Heavenly Father, where He sits on the right hand of the Father as Lord of all Creation. At Pentecost, by the coming of the Holy Spirit He manifested the Church as His Body. We look forward to His coming again in the fullness of His glory, according to the Scriptures.

2. Both families condemn the Nestorian heresy and the crypto-Nestorianism of Theodoret of Cyrus. They agree that it is not sufficient merely to say that Christ is consubstantial both with His Father and with us, by nature God and by nature man; it is necessary to affirm also that the Logos, Who is by nature God, became by nature Man, by His Incarnation in the fullness of time.

3. Both families agree that the Hypostasis of the Logos became composite (sunqetoj) by uniting to His divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy, which He has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit, created human nature, which He assumed at the Incarnation and made His own, with its natural will and energy.

4. Both families agree that the natures with their proper energies and wills are united hypostatically and naturally without confusion, without change, without division and without separation, and that they are distinguished in thought alone (th qewria monh). 20

5. Both families agree that He Who wills and acts is always the one Hypostasis of the Logos incarnate.

6. Both families agree in rejecting interpretations of Councils which do not fully agree with the Horos of the Third Ecumenical Council and the letter (433) of Cyril of Alexandria to John of Antioch.

7. The Orthodox agree that the Oriental Orthodox will continue to maintain their traditional Cyrillian terminology of "one nature of the incarnate Logos" ("mia fusij tou qeou Logou sesarkwmenh"), since they acknowledge the double consubstantiality of the Logos which Eutyches denied. The Orthodox also use this terminology. The Oriental Orthodox agree that the Orthodox are justified in their use of the two-natures formula, since they acknowledge that the distinction is "in thought alone" (th qewria monh). Cyril interpreted correctly this use in his letter to John of Antioch and his letters to Acacius of Melitene (PG 77, 184-201), to Eulogius (PG 77, 224-228) and to Succensus (PG 77, 228-245).

8. Both families accept the first three Ecumenical Councils, which form our common heritage. In relation to the four later Councils of the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox state that for them the above points 1-7 are the teachings also of the four later Councils of the Orthodox Church, while the Oriental Orthodox consider this statement of the Orthodox as their interpretation. With this understanding, the Oriental Orthodox respond to it positively.

In relation to the teaching of the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox agree that the theology and practice of the veneration of icons taught by that Council are in basic agreement with the teaching and practice of the Oriental Orthodox from ancient times, long before the convening of the Council, and that we have no disagreement in this regard.

9. In the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology as well as of the above common affirmations, we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways. It is this common faith and continuous loyalty to the Apostolic Tradition that should be the basis for our unity and communion.

10. Both families agree that all the anathemas and condemnations of the past which now divide us should be lifted by the Churches in order that the last obstacle to the full unity and communion of our two families can be removed by the grace and power of God. Both families agree that the lifting of anathemas and condemnations will be consummated on the basis that the Councils and Fathers previously anathematized or condemned are not heretical.

This is from the website Father Kyrillos mentioned from the Second Agreed Statement from 1990.



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