www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Conversion to Orthodoxy

Well, the laity might (but we know what ignoramuses they are), and some bishops might (because they're worse than the laity), but every reputable Catholic historian and theologian since the 1940s has recognized that the Synod of 879-880 superseded the Synod of 869-870--and was ratified by Pope John VIII, and was recognized as an ecumenical council by the Church of Rome for more than two centuries.

Because Rome might not always be right, but Rome is never wrong.

And the Orthodox always ascribe to Rome a level of power that it doesn't have, and doctrines that it doesn't enforce.

While I don't doubt that historians and theologians have grappled with the conundrum of Constantinople IV, or that laity and clergy have varying opinions on the matter (or are even ignorant of the issue); the reality is if alteration of the creed is accepted as valid and licit, there is no other possibility than that the council of 879-880 is not accepted. The historical record certainly shows that it was set aside in favor of 869-870.


This of course is not an Orthodox belief.

Let me also say I am not trying to use this thread, which is really about an extremely personal matter, to foment an argument or forward some polemical viewpoint. I just wanted to show there is an element to this that I don't think was being considered.

No, as Metropolitan Kallistos told me, the Orthodox motto is "Never explain, never apologize".


I also think the Orthodox need to learn how to be good winners.

Gentlepersons,

We're getting further and further off-topic.

Read what Tom requested and focus your responses in meaningful discussion - not one-liners designed to display your ability at repartee. Alternatively, the thread will be closed as unresponsive.

Hopefully, that is clear enough.

Many years,

Neil

:P Thanks Neil

I didn't want to have be the bearer-of-bad-news lol

As I continue this journey, are there any online articles I can read(I'm a college student, and I really don't enjoy reading books in my free time, I have enough of that from my lectures) discussing key theological differences so I can further educate myself?

What issues would you all view as most relevant to my consideration in this matter?

Tom, I have searched the internet and you can find some informative articles, but I think "books" are the way to go, if you want a more complete picture. As for a list of books or online articles I would be interested in what others have to say.

I would recommend "The Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Kallistos. I still consider it the classic introduction to the church. It's available online

http://www.intratext.com/x/eng0804.htm

Another good book to read is : Liturgy: Model of prayer- Icon of Life by Archimandrite Robert F. Taft, 2008, Eastern Publicatons, Fairfax,VA. ISBN 1-892278-87-1
Fr. Taft is a liturgist and this book explains the basics of the liturgy, easy to read and not that expensive.

:thumbsup:

There are many books out there that have helped me. Sometimes, if I don't feel like I can make it through a whole book, I'll use the index and just look up the things that I'm most interested in.

These two volumes by Tomas Spidlik are very informative, both with useful indexes:

http://www.amazon.com/Spirituality-Christian-East-Systematic-Cistercian/dp/0879079797
http://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Spirituality-Christian-East-Vol-2/dp/0879077069

If you'd rather stick to the internet, there are some excellent blogs with countless great articles to be found, both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic. Some which I follow are:

http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/
http://www.orthochristian.com/
http://www.pravmir.com/
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/ (great articles, but a bit too much anti-Catholic material at times)
http://www.philokalia.co/www.philokalia.co/Blog/Blog.html
http://ineffableglory.blogspot.com/
http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/

There's also a book I'm interested in reading called "Rome and the Eastern Churches", by a Dominican which I think looks good:
http://www.amazon.com/Rome-Eastern-...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1298224481&sr=1-1

Hopefully some of that may help.

EDIT: Plus, if you're interested in podcasts, there's
Ancient Faith Radio (Orthodox): http://ancientfaith.com/
Light of the East (Catholic): http://www.catholicradiointernational.com/lightoftheeast.php

MODERATOR NOTE: This post was made in continuation of a discussion begun earlier in this thread and which is among those which were leading the thread off-topic. Anyone wanting to pursue further discussion of it is asked to take that discussion to this thread - any further discussion of the matter here will not be moved - it will be deleted


And that is the politics I am speaking of. From issues about whether the head of the UGCC should be universally acknowledged as a Patriarch, to issues within Ukraine itself where until today there is pressure to convert the Ukrainian Catholics to Orthodox. Its not a pretty picture. And I'm an outsider looking in, what more for those directly affected?


Schismatic groups are always there. But isn't the schismatic groups of the Ukrainian Orthodox also a result of politics rather than theology?

Another good reference :
http://www.amazon.ca/Encountering-M...p;ie=UTF8&qid=1298330894&sr=1-10

Encountering the mystery by His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew.

This book is easy to read and explains the Orthodox standpoint for many topics.
A nice introduction and could balance the other classic by Timothy Ware the Orthodox Church.
Francois

You all seem senior members in your Church. Why have you not just remained Catholic and pushed for a Catholic Community that is Orthodox in its spirituality?

I am Orthodox, yet I have a profound affection towards the Catholic Church.

This is the only forum that i've seen it reciprocated.

I can tell you that as an Oriental Orthodox Christian, your Churches are very valuable for us. This isn't a competition.

I mean, i get the impression that a lot of Catholics view the Orthodox as "the other side" - as if we are all heretics and we've "stolen" catholics. Not at all.

It would make everyone's life MUCH MUCH easier if you just made your Church Orthodox. Keep your Holy Patriarch (Pope), keep your priests, just move towards Orthodox dogmas/spirituality/liturgy etc and try and forget that Vatican II ever happened.

Ay, caramba! to forget that Vatican 2 ever happened. What a misguided proposal! After all, the council produced - among other good things - the decree on the Eastern Catholic Churches. And that decree gave us ECs the courage and insight in order to begin to assert ourselves within the Catholic Communion of Churches; to begin reclaiming our distinct identities and to begin weaning ourselves away from the perniciously fallacious notion that we had to imitate the Latin Church in all things.

It was the start of a process still underway.

But if the decree wasn't binding, can't it just be ignored??