www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia

I have suggested that it is a fact that the Arabic Catholic Church of the East is in Communion with the Assyrian Church of the East, but no one has offered any credible proof that they are not.

I'm not saying "I know for a fact that they are not in full communion". But I am saying "I don't know of any reason to conclude that they are in full communion".

I don't really have time to investigate the matter further, but if you or someone else here does, I'll be interested to hear what you/they come up with.

Eamon,

You have told us that you were told by the 'bishop' that his 'church' is in full communion and you have pointed to slides on his church's website that indicate there was a 'Mass of Full Communion'. It doesn't seem to me that this requires that we prove that they are not - as they have certainly not proven that they are. With about 4 decades of experience in tracking the incredible paths that are traveled by the vagante, I'm not seeing or feeling anything different here than I've seen myriad other times - this one just has a bit flashier web presence and a bit more real estate than some of the others and, in time, will - like many - disappear. (I suggest finding some of my old threads here and on other web fora in which I discuss various vagante - and see how many of their website links are now dead.)

I'm going to follow up this weekend with an e-mail to a very good (albeit not official) Assyrian source and see what I can learn.

Mar Awa is the Assyrian Archbishop of California (not the US, unless something has changed recently) and those slides certainly appear to be photos of him and the sign being blessed is definitely outside the 'bishop's cathedral'. I don't see the likelihood of any webmaster error in labeling slides; I feel certain that however they are labeled is how he or she was told to label them.

Otoh, I've long ago learned to be wary of pics on websites - especially those of vagante ecclesia - wary of them insofar as interpreting what they mean.

Note that there are photos there of the 'bishop' with His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV and with Toni Blair. If the bishop went to Rome, I am more than prepared to bet that he could manage a photo clasping the Pope's hand - I've seen it before.

I've also known very well over the years how easy it has been for vagante episcopi to obtain letters from Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs that would seem to suggest union with the hierarch's jurisdiction. In fact, on closer reading and/or inquiry, it turns out that it was an intended courteous response made to someone unknown (but who looked, on paper, to be legit) by an unwitting priest or secretary, and signed, equally unwittingly, by a bishop.

That this individual, defrocked by the PNCC, and warned against by the Latins managed to garner an agreement of full communion with an ancient and venerable Apostolic Church, which is in full communion with no one else, defies the imagination. (He even managed to come to the attention of the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem and caused the latter to bother writing to the USCCB. One can't help but wonder if this was at the instigation of one or more of the four priest-uncles of the 'bishop' who, if I remember correctly, are said to be of that Patriarchate).

We'll see what comes of my inquiry.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,
Perhaps, we shall see.

eamon:

Christ is in our midst!!

I have to ask a question. If you are not of this group and have professed no reason for supporting their claims, why the persistence in defending them?

I've met a few people who have made various claims to authenticity--as the Apostolic Churches understand it--in the course of my work. I've worked with them out of respect for their humanity and the fact that my State Board requires it. But I don't go out of my way to defend them publicly as legit.

So what's your story?

That someone claims to be a bishop and have a Church and to be in communion with another recognized Church means nothing. There are formal, public ways which can be verified when claims are made. In this age when pictures can be photo-shopped, vestments and worship articles can be bought on eBay, and the internet makes it easy to spread one's self-proclaimed message, it seems to me that the greater burden comes to those making claims than those who are suspicious. Keep in mind the example of St. Thomas after the Resurection: have faith but be wary.

I've also got to ask why the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem sent a warning letter to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. If this group is on the level, the Catholic Church doesn't go about trying to referee those calling themselves Catholic--unless there is felt to be a real danger to the faithful of the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Bob

Bob,
that is a good question, why do I care... I guess I do not. I am Latin who belongs to a small group of Eastern and Latin Catholics centered around a small monastery. I Simply stated my belief that the church and bishop in question were in communion with the Assyrians, perhaps I am wrong.

eamon:

Christ is in our midst!!

A good man is one who can admit that he is or may be wrong. So I may be, too.

There are so many groups out there that make all sorts of claims. That's the reason Neil and I have a cautious approach to them. Neil's hobby is tracing them--and his accumulated knowledge is encyclopedic. He's my "go to" guy when it comes to these questions.

No harm; no foul.

Bob

I was contacted earlier this week by someone trying to get them included on my website, needless to say they were rejected :-)

David, my friend,

That is the ultimate chutzpah!

For those who don't know him, davidc/David Cheney is the owner and webmaster of the very valuable and highly respected on-line resource, Catholic-Hierarchy.org [catholic-hierarchy.org], which documents a wealth of current and historical information about the hierarchs and canonical jurisdictions of the Catholic Church.

Hmm, wonder if I'll be solicited to include their parishes in the Eastern & Oriental Catholic Parish Directory - if not, I'll feel so neglected

(It will be very interesting to see if they manage to get themselves listed at Masstimes or Parishesonline.)

Many years,

Neil

FYI, I have recently done some cleanup work on my site regarding the Eastern side of the Church. It still needs some work, but (hopefully) its improving.

Hi David. That's a great site. I haven't been to it in a while, but I'll try and go to check out the eastern-updates.

I see the slideshow now includes photos of the Archbishop with HH Paulos Ethiopian Tewahado Orthodox Patriarch, with HAH the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, with the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, and with then-Cardinal Ratzinger, as well as those I on which commented earlier.

Many years,

Neil

So we should soon expect to see a picture of the venerable Archbishop with Moses on one side and Elijah on the other. At that point I presume we will all finally accept his claim of legitimacy.

well, it is clear that this church is in communion with the Assyrian Church, I have attached a link from the Assyrian news service to that effect.
http://www.aina.org/ata/20110318234014.htm
Pax, Eamon

No, Eamon,

What is clear (besides that you are more and more apparently somehow involved with this group - which is fine, I just prefer that shilling be done upfront) is that 'Abp' Musallam claims that "He was also accepted as a bishop by the Assyrian Church of the East." and says "While we are under the Assyrian Church of the East, ..."

Notably, I see no indication on the Assyrian Church's website that it claims communion with the Archbishop's church.

Thanks for reminding me. I got waylaid by my readmission to the hospital a day or so after I intended to inquire of someone regarding this and forgot about it afterwards. I'll send an e-mail off tonight.

Many years,

Neil