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Alex, there was a time when even I (how could that be?) could not distinquish between "Vagante-ism" and canonical Orthodoxy either.

For the record, Metropolitan Fan Noli ended his life being fully canonical. He brought his Albanian-American jurisdiction into the former Metropolia, now known as the Orthodox Church in America, the "OCA." The Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America is an integral diocese of the OCA to this day.

Ofiesh, OTOH, went the other way, i.e., from canonical Orthodoxy into vagante-ism, esp. with his marriage. When a so-called "Orthodox" group claims "apostolic succession" of its bishops through Aftimios Ofiesh, you may be assured that 99% of the time it's "vagante," i.e., outside the canonical Orthodox Communion. Canonical Orthodox do not seem to have the need to "prove" their Apostolic Succession as much as do the hoaky "vagantes."

OrthodoxEast

For some reason, St Patrick has apparently become popular within the OCA.

The 45 minute liturgy of St James to which I referred, was indeed in connection with the 'Celtic Orthodox Church'.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Someone comments that "For some reason, St Patrick has apparently become popular within the OCA." No doubt. But has the OCA become popular with Saint Patrick? On a completely unrelated point, do people really send in postings during the middle of the night, or is that just a peculiarity of the computer? Incognitus

Dealing with your second part - late night/early morning posts - well I think it really depends where we live.
Possibly the night owls do post when the house is quiet - or they can get at their computers.

If you look at your own Personal Profile there is the possibility of adjusting the time on the Forum to allow for different time zones. I'm just too lazy to do it - and anyway I just add 5 hours from what the board time is , and I get the time here where I am. That's what can make it such fun - catching up in the mornings when folk have been on overnight.

Anhelyna

Dear OrthodoxEast,

How fascinating!

But Fan Noli is not a saint in the OCA, is he?

He was canonized by the independent movements, even though he repudiated them (by joining himself to canonical Orthodoxy).

One group has even canonized Rene Villatte who spent his final days in an RC monastery repenting of a lifetime of wide-spread ordinations.

Alex

No, Alex, Metropolitan Fan Noli has not been Glorified by the OCA, nor by the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania either. I have not heard of any movement within the OCA to canonize the Metropolitan, who is a well-known Albanian patriot, one of the first to translate the Divine Services into Albanian (Greek had heretofore been mandated for Albanian Orthodox Christians), and a one-time Premier of Albania before the Communist takeover.

The next time that His Grace, Bishop NIKON of Baltimore, Auxiliary to Metropolitan HERMAN with the special responsibility for supervising the OCA's Albanian Archdiocese and New England Diocese, visits my parish, I shall make a special point of asking Vladyka NIKON about Metropolitan FAN [Noli]. Vladyka NIKON, a *widower*, is an American of Albanian descent on both sides, paternal and maternal. He was tonsured into monasticism at St. Tikhon's Monastery after his wife's death from cancer. It was also at St. Tikhon's where he was Consecrated to the Episcopate as "Titular Bishop of Baltimore, Vicar to the Metropolitan [of the OCA]."

OrthodoxEast

Concerning St. Patrick, Archbishop of Armagh and Enlightener of Ireland: The Holy Orthodox Church includes this popular St. Patrick (as well as St. Patrick of Prussa and possibly other Saints named "Patick") on its Calendar of Saints, so why should he not be popular in the OCA?

Even the ROCOR church across the river from my OCA church has icons of both St. Patrick, Enlightener of Ireland, and St. Brendan the Navigator displayed for veneration. Why? The rector, Father Brendan, is an Irish-American convert to Orthodoxy (as is his twin brother, Father Chad, also a priest in the ROCOR)!

OrthodoxEast

Dear OrthodoxEast,

Well, I've had a picture of Theophan Noli in my icon corner for some time, after I heard the independent groups glorified him . . . May he be glorified by canonical Orthodoxy, according to God's Will!

The Celtic Saints, like St Patrick, were just as ascetical, if not more so, than Eastern saints.

Patrick would read the first fifty Psalms during his vigils and then he would put his feet in cold running water as he read the next fifty to keep from getting sleepy (!).

The Celts of old had a beautiful ascetical exercise where they would read Psalm 119 and make prostrations after every two verses and would continue until they made 100 prostrations - the "Cross Vigil."

They also had a beautiful practice called the "Shrine of Piety."

They would face the four corners in cross-wise fashion (much as a priest does during the Feast of the Precious and Life-Giving Cross) with arms extended and would recite the Our Father three times at each place, and each Our Father would end with the prayer "O God come to my assistance, O Lord make haste to help me" said three times and the Glory be.

The Celtic Celi De monks recited the Psalter in its entirety every day before 3:00 pm. If they couldn't finish it, they would recite the Beatitudes 12 times instead.

Alex

I certainly wasen't objecting to the OCA's veneration of St Patrick, it's just that in all honesty, outside of the OCA, those in North America who are Orthodox, tend to be so because of ethnicity or marriage. So I'am wondering if the veneration of St Patrick is a very well meaning attempt to appear more inclusive, or to put it humorously, an attempt to get the Irish vote.

Dear Lawrence,

Certainly, there are plenty of Irishmen in Orthodoxy today!

And so many of them try to appear as more "Orthodox" and more "Russian" than anyone.

You can take the Irishman out of the Catholic Church but you can't take St Patrick out of the Irishman!

Alex

It is well to remember that Metropolitan Fan Noli was also a pioneer in providing English-language service books and music books for the Orthodox. Interesting man, and very well educated. Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

That does it!

I'm all for beginning a movement to have Fan Noli glorified a saint by the OCA!

Can I be chair of the committee?

Alex

The only issue I have with this is "who would use it"? The Irish and Bretons are both very, very Roman at this point. The Scots are Presbyterian. Maybe the Welsh?

Brendan

I have some friends who are belong to a ROCOR parish and have a huge devotion to St. Patrick, Enlightener of Ireland. I admit to having great fun teasing them with questions why they celebrate his feast on March 17th instead of March 30th (which is the 17th running 13 days late). The usual response is that they really can�t celebrate on a day other than the one it is celebrated on in Ireland and here in America. Then I get to tease them again by asking them about the dates for Christmas and Pascha that are the �normal� ones for most of the West.

I have a beautiful icon of St. Patrick, given to me by some friends who made the journey East.