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Does anyone know anything about this church ? I've visited there website, but they don't give much information about there origins.

i know of the celtic rite in general...its probally under the antiochian orthodox patriarchate like the western(roman rite) orthodox.

here is a website for its history

http://www.celticorthodox.org/about.html

This is neither Orthadox nor a Church. It is a vagante body, whose British members broke away from the equally fake, but now respectable 'British Orthodox Church'. This body itself has spurious origins to some monophysite Syro-Jacobite group, although Alan Bain in his book on Independent Bishops states that their whole history and links to the 'bishopric of Iona' are totally invented.

The Archbishop of Thyateira and Gt Britain, Kyr Grigorios, issued an encyclical several years ago, warning the faithful to stay away from this self-styled Celtic Orthodox Church, such is the spiritual danger.

Having said that. they are certainly and interesting and colourful group... but not a Church... and not Orthodox.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Friends,

It would be wonderful if the Celtic traditions could, once again, find their true home in Orthodoxy - and Catholicism.

This Christian tradition was slowly destroyed by the incoming Roman Christians in Britain, but its spiritual sources relate to the Eastern Church and speak loudly to Western souls in search of the piety and asceticism this tradition holds out.

Unfortunately, what passes as "Celtic spirituality" is often a form of neo-paganism that is neither Christian nor truly Celtic.

Alex

I have to say that the spirituality of the Celtic 'Orthodox' group seems very sound, but their liturgical life as reflected in Glastonbury is bastardised and debased. The parish in Glastonbury claim to use the Liturgy of St James, yet according to my godson, they intersperse it with Anglican hymns and manage the whole thing in 45 minutes. I cannot speak for those who use the Stowe-Lorrha missal, but am nervous about the resurrection of obsolete rites - as I have said many times before. This is a great danger in archaelogical liturgies. Bits are missing, so gaps are filled unsuitable pieces, especially in do-it-yourself groups with self-styled and self-proclaimed Orthodoxy or Catholicity. By their very nature such groups are outside Holy Tradition as a living, grace-filled force in the life of the Church.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

O.K., fine . . .

Alex

I don't know about the celtic chruch, but the British Orthodox Church is now part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and they are definatly Orthodox. They do use the Liturgy of St. James, and I do know of one priest who does it in 45 min sometimes, but that's in India with members who are ex-Muslims and have to get in and out quickly before it's discovered that they're Christians. I don't think they're normally quite as long as in the Coptic Church (3.5 hr), but from what I've heard it's normally just fine. The use of old Anglican hymns for the Communion hymns is not a problem, many of the old hymns from the Anglican or very theologically rich, and beautiful. In fact my priest has taken some of them and set them to liturgical music to use as Communion hymns for English Liturgies in the Coptic Church, and some of the nearby Churches use them too.

Dear CopticO,

Excellent points!

The British Orthodox Church is truly a province of the Holy Coptic Church of Alexandria.

I think, though, that Father Mark was referring to another grouping, the "Celtic Orthodox Church" that has even canonized its founder a saint - St Tugdal.

There are also Celtic groups here in North America that have canonized "St Morgan of Wales" (Pelagius) and "St John Scotus Eriugena" of the 9th century.

Borrowing Anglican and Wesleyan hymns is something that has truly enriched the Western Catholic liturgical tradition.

There is much in these traditions that can enrich us all spiritually!

Alex

I looked at the web-site of this group, and found nothing Celtic about it (others have already observed that it is neither Orthodox nor a Church). I don't know any of these people, but I suspect that they are more enamoured of romanticism than of authentic Celtic anything. One wonders why a group which wishes to be Celtic Orthodox would not appreciate a connection with the Coptic Orthodox Church - the old Celtic Church was intensely monastic, with her monasticism derived straight from Egypt. Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Yes, indeed!

There is a site: Celticchristianity.org that has an English translation of the Celtic offices.

The Celts were the only Western monastic tradition that performed prostrations as is done in the East.

Alex

If I am not mistaken there are several groups claiming to be the Celtic Orthodox Church.

Dear friends, you forgot to add that in addition to the "British Eparchy" there is also a "Orthodox Catholic Church of North America-Celtic Rite" that comes from the "Holy Roman Orthodox Church" ("Benedictine Orthodox"), they are based in MI. They call themselves "Ordo Arcanorum Gradalis". The "HROC" trace its Apostolic Suiccession in "St." Aftimios who was, as far as I know, a canonical Bishop of the AOC, it seems that he lost his head whern he came to America. There is a "Holy Trinity Celtic Orthodox Universal Life Church" in Milwakee too, independent jurisdiction. The "Celtic Orthodox Christian Church" in Akron (OH) has restored a thing called "Stowe Missal" (another archeological liturgy).

This is just causing confussion amng Orthodox faithful or inquirers who look for a true Orthodox Church. I don't mean the vagantes are bad, I am sure there are good chistians among them, I suppose it would be good if any Canonical Church tries to include them in the mainstram Eastern Orthodox Church.

Dear Snoopers,

Yes, in 1985 the "Independent Orthodox movement" canonized Afthimios Ofiesh and Theophane Noli (Albanian) - both of which were married men in the episcopal state (according to the orders of their groups).

The Liturgy of Lorrha-Stowe is hardly an archaic service - it just wasn't used when the Romans put down the Celtic practices.

St John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco was apparently very much in favour of the Western Rites, especially the Gallican Rite.

Fr. Dcn Geoffrey O'Riada's website on Celtic Christianity has done much to bring a balanced perspective to this historic perspective.

There is no reason why the RC and Orthodox Churches should not make room for the fullest possible expression of Celtic liturgical and spiritual piety.

Alex

BIG difference between Metropolitan (Theo)Fan S. Noli and Ofiesh. Ofiesh married AFTER his episcopal consecration! Where in his biography does it say that Metropolitan Fan Noli was ever married, Alex? Was he a widower when he was tonsured a monk then?

OrthodoxEast

Dear OrthodoxEast,

Oh, I didn't know that!

Believe it or not, I have some friends in the "Independent Orthodox Movement" (we both do, as it turns out! .

One of them once described to me the healing of his hand that had a cancerous growth by touching the grave of Afthimios Ofiesh.

This was at a time when I really didn't know the difference between these groups . . . I even made the suggestion to him that he have an icon of his miracle-working patron written - which he did

And it was once suggested to me I get ordained in the "Anglican Orthodox Catholic Church."

But I find the Book of Common Prayer confusing . . .

(It is good that you have a sense of humour when it comes to me!)

Alex