www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Russian Orthodox Met. approves Stalin's liquidation of UGCC

I find it ironic that some protest a "bit too much" about Patriarch of Moscow, whose cathedra is directly descended by the Metropolia founded by St. Vladimir, calling him an "agent of Russian imperialism," "a foreigner," and whatever else while struggling with all their strengths to maintain their allegiances to Rome, never a part of Holy Rus', nor a spiritual center for St. Vladimir nor for Kiev, nor for the Cossacks nor even for Metropolitan Gideon (Balaban), Russian Orthodox Metropolitan of Lvov.

I read somewhere that JFK gave the advice, "Forgive your enemies but remember their names."

"The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is a hindrance to any sort of whims for reunification"??? Really?
Bottom line is that the major roadblock to genuine ecumenism and even unification is the RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH itself!!!

So did the other side. What does it matter know to be continually outraged by this. Is it helping your faith?

Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount:

"Treat others the way you would have them treat you: this sums up the law and the prophet". Matthew 7: 12.

But, what does it matter what He says! Or, does it?

You can be outraged all you want by the second hand recorded remarks of somebody.

Let me form my reply a little better. We're talking about a conversation heard and reported by one party, with no clarification, in a publication in my own opinion with a decided political slant.

But that's neither here nor there. We can throw out proof texts like treat others as you want them treated. Likewise we could point to other difficult passages like the need to forgive, let those without you know what cast the first stone, and turn the other cheek. They all apply.

I am neither UGCC nor ROC, so I have no dog in the fight. In my own opinion the same game is being played here in the constant carping and sniping that I see in the other side. So indeed, treat others as you want to be treated. So keep the wounds open, keep digging up history, etc.

LOL. Here I thought you were speaking of this:


This month marks the 54th year of the L'viv Sobor of 1947 (I notice that no one who complains of the Soviets forcing that union have no complaints about the Soviets forcing the union of "Western Ukraine" to Ukraine by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. I know plenty of Poles who want Lwów "back."), which, given the life expectancy in Ukraine (unfortunately continuing to fall) of 68.25 overall (62.37 men, and 74.5 women), that in 20 years the L'viv Sobor will enter history, if it hasn't already. At the time of the Sobor, the memories of those Orthodox and other Christians who supported it (and yes, there were those who supported the (re)union), were fresh of the treatment the Orthodox received in the region from the Austrian Hungarian government (illegalization, exile, property confiscation, concentration camps, executions, etc. Sound familiar?). Once the last living victim of the L'viv Sobor passes on, then the descendants of 1596 and 1946 can trade stories to their hearts' content.

As I have often said, the lack of compassion for and understanding of the history of Greek Catholics is a problem for both the Russian Orthodox Church and many of the Greek Orthodox as well. They have historically viewed the Greek Catholics as being held in 'bondage' by their secular rulers and as such, illegitimate. Therefore, 'reuniting' them to Orthodoxy by secular force is viewed by them as no more illegitimate than was the original unia regardless of the overt immorality of the secular governments. (After all, the Orthodox who remained Orthodox at the time of the unia would have viewed the secular western princes as being either immoral or iillegitimate from their point of view.)

Obviously that perspective is skewed as it fails to take into consideration many other factors,the first being the human factor and the current Faith of the believers,and other forces including the passage of time and the fear of cultural assimilation by minority cultures that were influenced by the Greek Catholics.

Likewise, the modern Roman church has often exhibited an equally erroneous lack of understanding of and compassion for the Greek Catholics who have remained loyal to her, albeit from another point of view than that of the aforementioned Orthodox.

I am not excusing Metropolitan Hilarion's statements, but I think that trying to understand the framework of his points of reference is necessary to understand where he and his Church are coming from in this delicate and emotional area.

Many of us on this forum, both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox alike come from families or cultures that have been fractured in the 20th century by these conflicts and by the acts of the two 'superior' Churches (i.e. the Vatican and the Patriarchates.)If only the larger bodies would pay more attention to our points of view from the inside, they each could learn better how to deal with us and more importantly, with each other.

Pavloosh,

My actual quote was, "To many Orthodox, the UGCC is the hinderance to any sort of whims for reunification."

I did not state that I think the UGCC is a hinderance. I qualified the statement with saying that to many of the Orthodox, we are. Whether we actively choose to be a hinderance is left up to us.

The Russian Orthodox Church still maintains a sense of imperialism IMO, so it views everything in Ukraine as theirs, including the UGCC. This is nothing new.

DMD,

Amen.

You always comment with a lot of clarity and wisdom on these issues, which is much needed for those of us who can be a bit reactionary on such topics.

There was a Russian Orthodox Patriarchate in Moscow in 988? Where was Moscow in 988? And how did the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1686 find itself suddenly under the Patriarchate of Moscow, and no longer under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

By the way, Hetman Vyhovsky is still remembered by many Ukrainians for his anti-tsarist Russian policies and his Ukrainian Cossak victory at Konotop over the Russians.

You do realize Yanukovych is generally considered a thug with a criminal record with deep ties to the Donetsk mafia? Recall in 2004 he pretended to be almost killed by an egg thrown at him in western Ukraine in what was a buffoonish attempt to garner sympathy with the Ukrainian voters away from Yushchenko. Yanukovych had thugs show up at police stations, schools etc. coercing students, cops to vote for him or else. This was all caught on tape and shown to Ukraine's Supreme Court in 2004.

By now, any observer of Ukraine will realize Yanukovych has shredded Ukraine's constitution, bought members of parliament from other parties to his party, has appointed as Head of Internal Afffairs in Ukraine an oligarch - Khoroshkovsky - who also has gigantic media interests (he has pressured Ukraine's remaining independent TV stations as Putin did to the free press in Russia) and Khoroshkovsky is also responsible for Ukraine's judiciary. No conflict of interest there.

Ukraine is slowly turning into a one-party state exactly as did Chekist Putin in Russia. Same tactics. The last regional elections in Ukraine under Yanukovych were tainted.

Hetman, do you also believe Putin's authoritarian political system in Russia where even peaceful protesters are arrested to be democratic?

Heck, one prominent priest of the Russian Orthodox Church has praised Gaddafi. I guess shooting at one's own citizens in Libya by madman Gaddafi has support in the ROC of all places as well.

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/world_news/41176/

Hetman Vygovsky, just out of curiosity, do you consider those Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishops and priests who were tortured and murdered viciously in Stalin's Secret Police prisons after 1946 to be Christian martyrs, martyrs for Christ? They held firm to their faith in the face of an evil atheistic totalitarianism. Surely, you can agree as a Christian that these men suffered as martyrs?

Which is totally relevant to this thread, and I'm sure if he didn't do a quick Internet search he couldn't come up with something as absurd as a counter-example from the other side.

You want to play the same historical recrimination game for some reason. I'm sure nobody who does in any way supposes they're the ones stifling unity. It's just the other guy that's at fault.