www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Russian Orthodox Met. approves Stalin's liquidation of UGCC

I don't know if I should laugh or weep, but when I am at a loss for words, I find consolation in the Scriptures:


My son, when you come to serve the LORD, prepare yourself for trials.

Be sincere of heart and steadfast, undisturbed in time of adversity.

Cling to him, forsake him not; thus will your future be great.

Accept whatever befalls you, in crushing misfortune be patient;

For in fire gold is tested, and worthy men in the crucible of humiliation.

Trust God and he will help you; make straight your ways and hope in him.

You who fear the LORD, wait for his mercy, turn not away lest you fall.

You who fear the LORD, trust him, and your reward will not be lost.

You who fear the LORD, hope for good things, for lasting joy and mercy.

Study the generations long past and understand; has anyone hoped in the LORD and been disappointed? Has anyone persevered in his fear and been forsaken? has anyone called upon him and been rebuffed?

Compassionate and merciful is the LORD; he forgives sins, he saves in time of trouble.

My remark has nothing to do with the martyrs of the UGCC. It has rather to do with the shameful and foolish behaviours of modern people.

Wow, I havn't heard that one since I used to read the BCC newspaper in my dad's ofice from Passaic when the late Bishop Dolinay used to be the editor. Of course, I would argue that the Church of Rome at that time was Orthodox and part of the Pentarchy prior to the schism! lol

Thank you. My parents' families were torn apart by the schism in this country with aunts and uncles on both 'sides'. I know that my father's mom went along with her husband while her heart stayed with her Greek Catholic parish in New Jersey.

My dad taught me that we had to move beyond the past and recognize that which we have in common, that the Faith that was handed down by generations of Babas and Didos from before and through the unions was what counted and that we would all be equal in the view of God and be judged on how we followed the two greatest commanments as taught by Christ.

Earthly passion obscures that reality. Metropolitan Nicholas recognized this as well and I believe that he will be remembered fondly by all of us for his efforts to futher that understanding.

In our church we have an Orthodox icon of the martyrs of Carpatho-Rus, some pre-date the union, some do not. We also have two small icons - one of Blessed Paul Goidich and Blessed Theodore Rhomza. To deny their martrydom is foolishness whether you are Orthodox or Greek Catholic.

That's all I have to say, we should all calm down and, as my grandmother would say, 'consider the source' of the hurtful comments.

Why was John Paul II beatifying Ukrainian Catholic martyrs? Shouldn't the UGCC Synod be doing that for itself? After all, the UGCC is supposed to be a self-governing Church.

Generally speaking, no, Orthodox do not commemorate those who died rejecting Orthodoxy, much the less regard them as Saints.

And the point that is simply being missed is that these people had the option of either becoming full fledged LATIN RITE Roman Catholics and staying faithful to the papacy or returning to the ancestral Orthodox Faith. They chose neither out of political convictions, and thus are indeed political martyrs to their movements.

I think the question is begged why they didn't want to witness fealty to Rome in a licit fashion and seek to garner the obedience of the masses to their convictions thereby. Thus if they would have become Latin prelates, that would have been an option and, most probably, the Archbishop of Vilnius would have helped to facillitate it with direct orders from the Vatican.

But, of course, I believe that they had a right to whatever political views they may have held-as do their successors-and to kill them for them or to effectuate their premature demise, is a repugnant act.

And in my response, I do consider the source.

Ermmm...wouldn't this destroy the whole purpose of having eastern rite catholicism? I mean ultimately, the byzantine rite (and other eastern rites) were permitted so that ethnic faithful accustomed to their traditional rites could continue to use them and be Catholic?

There are of course faithful who are ethnically of one of the eastern rites in the diaspora, but I can't help think that the only thing that servicing them pastorally and denying the rite to those who stayed in the homeland (if terms like homeland and diaspora are even really meaningful in a globalised world with multiple Orthodox jurisdictions in every city) would do is relegate eastern catcholicism to being some sort of liturgical exotica for refugees from the Tridentine rite or Novus Ordo.

This is pretty much what has happened to the Russian rite of course, and it hasn't done it any good whatsoever. ROme has systematically eliminated the RUssian byzantine catholic rite in Russia whilst promoting the Latin rite. THis has resulted in Russian Catholic parishes in the "disapora" with few if any Russians attending that are staffed by Russophile bi-ritual priests on the run from the Novus Ordo. If this is a fate that ROme wants for all its eastern rites it could go ahead and do as you suggest, but it would do no good whatsoever.

The other part of what you say is of course also untrue. Again using the example with which I am most familiar, whilst ROme has transformed the Russian Byzantine Catholic rite into a basket case of ecclesiastical mismanagement that will probably soon cease to exist, this and the fact that it is basically restricted to the "disapora" and only celebrated by people who are not ethnic Russians and never were, and would never become, Russian Orthodox has not in any way diminished Muscovite condemnations of it. The "its only a few parishes in the US" argument doesn't hold any weight with Moscow, and restricting the other eastern rites in the same way wouldn't make much difference either.

You know what Hetman. The Russian Orthodox Church then in the Soviet Union (not in the diaspora) was controlled by Stalin and the NKVD for all intents and purposes. Roman Catholics could also were repressed in Stalin's atheist state. These brave Ukrainian Catholic Martyrs chose loyalty to Christ and Church over being blackmailed by Stalin and the KGB. It was not political. One Ukrainian Catholic priest had to watch the Soviet Secret Police torture his son in front of him in an NKVD prison in order to make him agree to become a member of the Stalinist controlled Russian Orthodox Church.

I know members of my family, some passed away by now, who were students in school with one of the bishops marked as a martyr in that list I linked to as their teacher, and my family members knew some of the priests sent into exile or who perished. They remember the bishop saying goodbye to his boys in class, that he would no longer be able to teach them under the new occupiers the Soviets, and he wished that God would watch over them for the rest of their lives and he was entrusting his life to God. The boys didn't understand what was happening but that Ukrainian Catholic bishop died in a Soviet secret police prison dungeon, tortured to death, some time later.

It would be a disservice for me, but more for those who died for their faith in Christ and the Church, to engage with someone who praises Stalin as their liberator, who calls their sacrifice political, or who engages in utterly surreal anti-Ukrainian diatribes. I will no longer respond to you. You can post whatever anti-Ukrainian or anti-UGCC myths you wish. Post all you want, but I have heard much of the same arguments before from when the Soviet Union still existed and I will not listen to them on here, a Byzantine Catholic forum where Byzantine Catholics, including Ukrainian Greek-Catholics, should feel at least at home, never mind defending themselves against vile accusations against their very existence or their martyrs. I honor their memory too much to get down into the pit with you to engage in mudslinging.

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Many years,

Neil

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Thank you to those who participated in the topic to date.

Many years,

Neil