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I am very happy to see the veneration of any of the saints of the pre-schism west. Many ancient pious devotions, such as those outlined by Alex, can find a valued and valid place in the personal prayer and devotions of the faithful or the cell-rule of the monastic.

Liturgically, we can simply celebrate the Celti9c saints within the framework of the living-tradition of common prayer and worship that moulds our Byzantine Christianity.

I think that a framework such as the Byzantine vespers and matins, with their wealth of variable proper texts are an incredible way to celebrate the Western saints, or any saint whatsoever.

In all honesty many 'Western' Christians, and Christians of Celtic descent would find our Eastern liturgical life no more foreign, or perhaps just as foreign as that of the Celts.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Brendan,

Excellent point - thank you for gracing us with your presence here yet again. It is just such an overwhelming experience

I see a return to Celtic forms of worship in the British Isles on two levels.

One is as a result of "protest" against Roman dominance and as part of a kind of Celtic nationalism.

Certainly, Western Orthodoxy has tended to inspire strong feelings for "Orthodox Gaul" and "Old England" etc.

And that is as it should be.

On another level, the Latin Churches of the British Isles have always maintained strong Celtic practices that are most evident, as Father Mark has said, in the personal devotional lives of Catholics ie. pilgrimages to Downpatrick, leaving votive stones, etc.

There is a great interest in Alexander Carmichael's work and in Celtic monasticism, although the latter is largely the result of "picking and choosing" what doesn't hurt too much . . .

Ultimately, the bringing back of Celtic spirituality, including Celtic liturgy, would enrich us with the insights of an Orthodox Western tradition that was once honoured by the entire pre-schism Church.

Plus it would put pay to modernist, Protestant and even pagan claims to it . . .

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

Yes, you are more than correct!

The Celtic tradition is closer to our Eastern one than the other Western traditions in many respects.

I think that a rediscovery of the fullness of this ancient Orthodox-Catholic tradition by the West would help even more in the process of bringing the West into a greater patristic consciousness.

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I have read all the posts and replies with facination on the topic of Celtic Orthodoxy. Being a convert to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, as well as a Celt by heritage, I had wondered how my church, the Antiochian, would accept me and my Celtic spirituality. I was very pleasantly surprised. As has been mentioned many times on this thread, St Padraigh's feast day was richly celebrated. I fit in just fine and was even more amazed that Father is an Irishman as well. With Christ, all things are possible! The pre-schism Celtic church is full of rich treasures. Pray that we all can see it in that light.

Dia Is Murie Duit!
Michael

I'm half Celtic (1/4 Irish and 1/4 Highland Scottish means 1/2 Celtic...with some Pictish and Viking, and maybe even some Norman mixed in, I presume!)

Logos Teen

It appears that the legimately Orthodox, Celtic Orthodox Church of the British Eparchy, is quite small at present.http://www.celticorthodox.org/contacts.html

Dear Lawrence, this 'Church' is not legitimately Orthodox. It is a vagante body recognised by noone, with no real links to Orthodoxy.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Celticson,

The Celtic heritage has much to teach us all!

What has always inspired me is the Celi De devotion to the Psalms and their Spartan spirituality.

The Greek Catholic Church in Dublin has published a Divine Liturgy booklet in both Gaelic and Ukrainian - through the goodness of Andrij Bebko, I have a copy.

It depicts an icon with St Patrick and St Nicholas Charnetsky - the Ukrainian Catholic Martyr who was the first Greek Catholic hierarch to formally visit Ireland in 1932.

Great stuff!

Alex

Dear Teen Logo,

Well, nobody's perfect!

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!


Dear brother Alex-


Thanks for the input, I always look forward to hearing your take on things, your wisdom is most welcome. After all this time, please, call me Michael.


Slainte Chugat Alex,
Michael

Dear Michael,

Right back at y'a, Big Guy!

It was Dublin's Fr. Archimandrite Keleher that inspired me about my own tradition - and he still does.

The liturgical booklet commemorates the Pope but ONCE - we Ukies commemorate him generally four times in one Liturgy.

Does it take an Irishman to set us straight?

It would appear so . . .

Alex

I spend a lot of time lurking on the Forum and enjoy the lively exchanges. But on the issue of the Celtic Church, I can't help but chime in.

It is assumed that an independent Celtic system is long dead and gone, but I have reason to believe that it has survived in the Highlands of Scotland. I know individuals who live the old traditions and tell the old stories, all being handed down from generation to generation. What they have is not a johnny come lately group calling themselves the Celtic Church, but a belief system that streches back generations.

They pretty much keep to themselves but will talk with those who they truly believe to be honest in their search. Part of the reason they keep to themselves is the persecution they suffered from Protestant hands. They were able to co-exist with the Catholics, but were always considered a "little strange".

In some ways they could be compared to the Old Believers, holding on to the old traditions and ways while persecuted for their refusal to have change forced upon them.

They do claim to have orders, but I have no way of verifying whether their orders are legitimate though I personally believe they are.

I am on a qwest to rediscover my spiritual heritage. I was raised Latin but have been attending a Melkite Church for the last year and a half. Going Eastern was one step in reclaiming my spiritual heritage but not completely. I am Irish and I would love to see the restoration of the true Celtic spirituality in the larger body of the Church as well. As my mentor has told me, being Celtic is not a matter of denomination but a matter of heart.

I don't know, but someone said Scotland was Presbyterian. You better take that back or you could find an army of angry Highlanders swooping down upon you. Many of the Highlanders remained Catholic and may take umbrage at being called Presbyterian.

Just a note to Alex. I know David B as well since we attend the same church. You have to love him.

Sl�n agus beannacht,

Terry (Toirdealbhach)

I think its fair to say that Celtic spirituality is recognised on this forum as alive and kicking within the heart and soul of Christians of various traditions. However, there is no living institutional canonical Celtic Church, as a consequence of history and circumstance - something we all lament.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner

Father Mark, I still seem to be missing something. According to the British Eparchy's website, there Church derives Apostolic succession from the year 1866, when Jules Ferrette was consecrated as a Bishop, by the Bishop of Emesa of the Syrian Orthodox Church. And, they also mention that there orders are accepted by the Egyptian Coptic Church.

Dear Fr. Mark,

I am only raising the possibility of a surviving Celtic remnant into the present day. The one I am in contact with was one of my high school teachers back in the 60's and so I have known the man well for over close to 40 years. It is only in the last few years that he has entered into "orders". Again I can't verify whether their orders are true or not, but I plan to talk to him soon and will try to get a clearer picture on the handing down of "orders" through the centuries.

I am curious though what would be involved in determining whether there has been a true succession. I know part of it is recognition by another Church in true communion, but if they are true descendants of the Celtic branch of the Church, what would be required seeing that they have been in isolation since the suppression of their Church in the 12th century (?)?

Again, I'm not saying one way or the other, but only raising the possibility.

I ask your prayers and blessing,

Toirdealbhach