www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Christ the Saviour in Moscow, Pre Sanctified Liturgy

I am not a Russophile but I respect their tradition, to those of us who love the Church of the East, Orthodox and Eastern Catholic, this video from Christ the Saviour in Moscow from this week's presanctified Liturgy is special. I can close my eyes an imagine Hagia Sophia at the height of the Byzantine Empire. It certainly looks like an Eastern counterpart to St. Peter's.
http://www.youtube.com/user/russianchurch#p/u/12/wXq_N9iQY_g

Very beautiful, indeed.

I observed two things that I make me inquisitive and invite comments.

The first is at 3:58 in the clip, the deacons leave the sanctuary through the Royal Doors to receive the dikirion and trikirion from the Patriarch. I take it that this is a special exception, for normally a deacon won't proceed through the Royal Doors unless he has the Gospel, Eucharist or some other sacred object?

The second is at 4:19 when the Patriarch is incensing the Eucharist and all the other (arch)bishops are kneeling. To me, this is natural, but some seemingly authority persons have claimed that we don't kneel; some even suggest standing during "kneeling prayers," those which are introduced with the introductory phrase "On bended knee." Is this "non-kneeling" an over-exuberant exercise of the Vatican call to "return to our traditions?"

The second point. What you see is in the video is what happens in Catholic Byzantine tradition churches as well.

We do the same in the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox diocese at this part when "Let my Prayer be Set Forth" ('Da ispravitsja molitva moja..." in Church Slavonic)is chanted by the congregation. My church :

Orthodox don't kneel on Saturdays and SUndays, and the Presanctified is never celebrated on Saturday or Sunday. You will often see earth prostrations/ great bows and quite long periods of kneeling during Lent on weekdays in any orthodox church.

I should make the point BTW since you refer to kneeling prayers that the most famous kneeling prayers of the vespers of Pentecost are commonly said straight after the liturgy on Pentecost SUnday, so might seem to contradict what I just said.

However, in liturgical time, these kneeling prayers belong to the Monday, since the vespers of the evening mark the start of the next liturgical day and thus really a weekday service, whether they are said straight after liturgy or not.

Yet another confusing example of where liturgical time (a day starts at vespers) clashes with metric time (a day starts at 12 am).

Thank you for your comments; our BC practice is the same. My question was directed toward those (few) who say that we don't kneel at all (evidence strongly indicates that this is untrue.

Something which IS a bit confusing is that we continue fasting on Saturday and Sunday during the Great Fast, but we don't kneel. It seems contradictory; if someone has a good response to why this is so I would appreciate it. It is a bit hard to defend this contradiction when I don't have an explanation.
I can explain it to some extent; for on Sunday we receive the Eucharist....but what about Saturday when, ideally, we don't have DL and the Eucharist?

Looking for good answers from my brothers in Christ.

Who ever said we don't kneel at all? The proper moments for kneeling and/or prostrations are all provided in the rubrics, and those who say we never kneel are as wrong as those who kneel when it is inappropriate. As to why we don't kneel on Saturdays and Sundays during the Great Fast, the answer is simple: we do not fast on Saturdays and Sundays, because Saturday is the Sabbath, and Sunday is the Lord's Day; both are festive, and it is impossible to fast while feasting.

I know that my parish deacon goes through the royal doors with the censor and addtionally without any object when he does the petition of "O Lord save the pious..."

I'm confused. All the fasting calendars I look at indicate no meat, fish, dairy, and eggs from the last permitted day all the way to Pascha, with the exception of fish on Annunciation and Palm Sunday. This is also what I read in books, and saw in practice in the Orthodox country I lived in for a number of years. However, I frequently read and hear, as in Stuart's post above (and many other places), that we don't fast on Saturdays and Sundays. Yet, according to the fasting guidelines, we do fast on Saturdays and Sundays.

Can someone explain this?

Stuart,
I agree with you; I'm probably splitting hairs here, but semi-official fasting rules,(maybe "recommendations" better describe them) should take the Sabbath into account. I quote from two sources that I easily found on a quick internet search:

http://abbamoses.com/fasting.html The page is titled "The Fasting Rule of the Orthodox Church". First Week of Lent: Only two full meals are eaten during the first five days, on Wednesday and Friday after the Presanctified Liturgy. Nothing is eaten from Monday morning until Wednesday evening, the longest time without food in the Church year. (Few laymen keep these rules in their fullness). For the Wednesday and Friday meals, as for all weekdays in Lent, meat and animal products, fish, dairy products, wine and oil are avoided. On Saturday of the first week, the usual rule for Lenten Saturdays begins (see below).

Weekdays in the Second through Sixth Weeks: The strict fasting rule is kept every day: avoidance of meat, meat products, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.

Saturdays and Sundays in the Second through Sixth Weeks: Wine and oil are permitted; otherwise the strict fasting rule is kept.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Great_Fast [i][/i] Observance of Great Lent is characterized by abstention from many foods, intensified private and public prayer, personal improvement, and almsgiving. The foods traditionally abstained from are meat and dairy products, fish, wine and oil. (According to some traditions, only olive oil is abstained from; in others, all vegetable oils.) Since strict fasting is canonically forbidden on the Sabbath and the Lord's Day, wine and oil are permitted on Saturdays and Sundays. If the Feast of the Annunciation falls during Great Lent, then fish, wine and oil are permitted on that day.

What is John Doesky in the pew supposed to make of this? Sometimes the Church takes on the disposition of the biblical Pharisees, quoting strict laws which they themselves don't keep.

I apologize for abducting this thread; I have deviated. Just a note of explanation; the mandatory fast for BC's is just the strict fast on Pure Monday and Great Friday and abstain from meat on Wednesdays and Fridays. One increases his/her fast from this starting point.

Just a humble deacon,
Paul

Jaya,

It might help for you to know that the Christian East defines things a bit differently.

Abstinence means refraining from a type of food. For example, the tradition is to abstain from meat and dairy products for the 40 days of Lent, plus Holy Week.

Fasting means to limit intake. For example, some Eastern Christians fast during Great Lent and have only one full meal and two small meals per day.

The terms are often used interchangeably, so one needs to know what is meant in each usage by the context.

John

Thanks for your reply, John.

I was aware of the two terms, and the difference in their meaning, from my RC childhood, and I still hear them used by Roman Catholics today, while in the Byz Cath and Orthodox circles I move in, people seem to call everything "fasting." So I thought "abstention" was a term used only by RCs. I noticed even in the post above your reply to me, the term "fasting" is used in the quotes that give the guidelines about refraining from certain foods.

So, then, based on your reply, I take it that "we never fast on Saturdays and Sundays" means that we just wouldn't go completely without food, or limit the size/number of meals in the way you described, on those days.

Keep in mind that the practice among Orthodox faithful and cultures varies. There is the strict Athonite monastic ideal and then there is everyday life. The best Orthodox and, I guess Eastern Catholic, practice is to be aware of the rules, let your health, spirtual needs and conscience be your guides and don't pay attention to what others are saying, doing or watching. This fulfills St. Paul's lessons to us as read during the Triodon cycle prior to Lent.