www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia

I assure you that I am not in any way affiliated with this Bishop of his church. I am a facebook friend with him. I have found several posts that mention his affiliation with the Assyrian Church though. I think that if he was not affiliated with the Assyrian Church of the East, they would issue a statement to that effect. I also am familiar with Vagante groups, and I understand your suspicion, however I do think that they are in communion with the Assyrians. Again, I am a latin catholic, I belong to a small eastern rite group centered around a monastery and have no connections to any church beyond those of belonging to the Family of Rome. I will also say that I really like this aforementioned Bishop and I think he works tirelessly for the Kingdom of God. Pax, Eamon

Also,
I am sorry to hear you were in the hospital , be assured of my prayers.
Pax, Eamon

Eamon,

My apologies - and my thanks for your prayers. My remark was made in haste and was unkind, the more so given that the season of Lent is upon us. I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

As to why the Assyrian Church website would not post denying that it is in communion with the Archbishop's church, it is no different than the Vatican website - one doesn't see postings there indicating that Rome is not in communion with Utrecht or with the myriad of churches that characterize themselves as 'Catholic'. Likewise, the EP's website doesn't allocate space to denouncing the multitude of entities characterizing themselves as 'Orthodox', but which have no valid canonical claim to same nor to be in communion with Constantinople - despite efforts to appear so. (Albeit, the Archbishop is more forthcoming in his claims to communion with the Assyrian Church than most, but not all, entities that assert such claims).

As to the observation you make that, in effect, the Archbishop appears to be genuinely seeking to do God's work, I won't deny that I see nothing suggesting that he has ulterior motives. There's no sign of ordinations for a fee, etc, which characterize any number of vagante ecclesia, nor does it appear to be an instance of playing at church - another common phenomenon among the genre ('let's dress up and say mass in the cathedral; I'll move the car out'). And, there is evidence that they are engaged in social service activities, etc.

Such men as these (and he's not the only one among the 'independent' Catholic and Orthodox) do, undoubtedly, bring some persons to God who might otherwise be unchurched, and they are not necessarily 'bad' people. However, in the long run, they contribute to the disunity that already exists among the Apostolic Churches and which those Churches are themselves striving to overcome.

It does not help that, as that effort continues, people are out there creating new ecclesia which, when one comes down to it, are not teaching any new spiritual wisdom. When one looks at the spirituality, theology, doctrine, even praxis, of this man's church, you don't see anything that isn't present in the church to which he already belonged - the PNCC.

So, why did he need a 'new' church. It certainly looks to be because he decided that he needed to be a bishop. A career choice not likely to be given him in the PNCC with a surname not reflective of the PNCC's origins (or those of one of the other national churches - Lithuanian, Slovak, Czech, or Bohemian - that were subsumed into it). In short, like the vast majority of 'independent' and vagante churches, its raison d'etre is to satisfy a personal need on the part of its founder - an ego need. Sorry, but after 4 decades of studying the genre, I find few instances in which someone has made a compelling argument as to why they could not fulfill their perceived spiritual mission within the structure of the Church from which they departed to found 'my/our church'.

Many years,

Neil

Well, from the local newspaper, more information:

http://republicanherald.com/news/arabic-catholic-church-to-open-in-pottsville-1.1120551

It appears as though he has succession through the famous Brazilian National Catholic Church, or however it styles itself.

Eamon, there's a whole pile of vagante "bishops" and "priests" who get their photos taken with canonical hierarchs and use that to make the claim they have full communion. One of these guys who has done this in the past is now in the Melkite Church after leaving a vagante Ukrainian jurisdiction. I'm trying to get him booted.

Tom

Thank you Tom,
I am aware of that, none the less, he does claim that he is in full communion with the Assyrian Church of the East, and no one has provided any proof to the opposite. If indeed anyone does, I will recant my belief that they are. I enjoy vagante websites with their apostolic lineages and their long drawn out explanations for their existence also, but I think this Bishop (Ramzi) is telling the truth.

"One of these guys who has done this in the past is now in the Melkite Church after leaving a vagante Ukrainian jurisdiction. I'm trying to get him booted."

Tom,
If a Orthodox Priest in one of the thousand Ukrainian Autocephalous bodies left and joined the Melkites, I assume he was excepted by a valid Bishop. So why exactly are you trying to have him booted?

The body he came from was a vagante jurisdiction. He also spent time in prison in 1995-1997 for felony forgery/fraud. He is married (which in itself is not a problem) but he also for a number of years presented himself as an Orthodox bishop even though he's married.

It's a moot point now. He's left the Melkite Eparchy and is now with the UAOC-Canonical as a married bishop.

I guess you're right. But it's really pretty pointless arguing about whether he has made that claim or not, since claiming it doesn't make it so.

How do you mean?

Tom:

I'm new here, and wanted to send you a private message, but I guess I haven't been around long enough for the system to allow that.

Anyway, I attend the Melkite parish where the individual you refer to was wanting to serve. I had my suspicions about him from the beginning, but am curious about how you knew about him. I didn't do any Googling of his name till after he'd left (under suspect circumstances), and was amazed by what I found. I'd like to take this topic off-list, so if you're able to send me a PM, please do so.

Thanks.

Christ is risen!

AJ

I found out about this man through some sites on "independent" "Orthodox" clergy. I also saw the newspaper articles of him going to prison for forgery. I also know that this man has been expelled from other vagante jurisdictions for reasons. So, I won't say any more for now. But we both know who we're talking about. I can't PM you either.... I guess I'm too new.

Tom

ok , so did anyone ever find any proof that the Arabic Catholic Church is not in Communion with the Assyrian Church of the East?

I'm not really looking. The claim being made by the Arabic Catholic Church is similar to a great many other such claims, being made by a great many other groups that are similar to the Arabic Catholic Church.

Of course they are not. The Assyrian Church of the East is in communion with nobody.