www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Hilarion of Volokolamsk-"Schismatic" Sacraments Not Grace-Giving

Depending on your age, dear otsheylnik, you will remember that Patriarch Alexei presented the Catholic Bishop Katkov with a Panagia on a visit to Russia, thereby signifying the Russian acceptance of the authenticity of his Catholic episcopal consecration. In fact it scandalised the emigres that the Russian Church treated Bp Katkov in the protocol at events as the equal of an Orthodox bishop.

He was also 90 years old at the time. Hence my Met. Vitaly analogy.

So because he was elderly, it means his actions should be discounted? People can find any reason they want to discredit someone or their actions, now can't they.

I agree. My dad died at 92. Mentally he was as sharp as a tack through the last day of his life. Often, with great age, comes great wisdom.

There are no shortage of individuals within the Roman Catholic Church that insist on the invalidity of Vatican II, but that by no means means that it isn't the position of the RCC.

hawk

This is the very reason why I have temporarily abandoned my interest in joining the Orthodox Church. I may yet change my mind. The reasons were complex, but half of it was surely that the local orthodox church was much more convenient to drive to. (not a good enough reason I know.)

So therefore a short time ago I found myself lumped together with evangelical protestant catechumens in an Orthodox catechism class. I soon thought to myself, if for much of my life in my Eastern Catholic Church I have had the same liturgy most Orthodox use, the same saints many Orthodox use..why should I be treated as almost a pagan?

I constandly found myself wondering why I was sitting through the classes, where I was being taught that all these protestant ideas, which I had never ever believed in, were wrong.

Perhaps I sound arrogant, but I simply was not a protestant and should not have been labeled a catechumen.

Other isses came up during the process of "catechism class" in which I found the typical exaggerations of latin theology being promoted as true. That it is overly scholastic..holds false views of the immaculate conception etc..

I found these intolerable because they were.. charicatures or outright lies..started by some theologian or bishop somewhere up at the top and made their way into typical catechism.

There are real differences and such, but I often found that the more legitimate theological differences were the least talked about...

You know I'll never stop admiring aspects of both the Orthodox and Catholic Church but..

The most reactionary traditionalist latin catholics have quite a bit in common with many orthodox jurisdictions, and thats what i failed to realize. I was naive.

In fairness amongtst the traditional latin mass communities I encounterd plenty of the view that Orthodox sacraments and eucharist can not allow one to "reap the benefits" of grace that sacraments have when you are in communion with the Pope, it was to my mind a variation, or polite way, of calling them invalid. I still love those communities too, since they stand up for what they believe in, just as Orthodox do, even if its an exaggeration at times (the profound importance of women never wearing pants!)

So the feeling of dislike and exaggeration of each others errors is I suppose mutual, except that in the Latin church it is a presently a minority view (an increasing minority I'll add, traditionalists are growing) whereas in the East it is a majority position (possibly a declining majority).

We're all even in the end..
and yet there's only one True Church.

I end up confused!

Thank you all for such great comments, a remarkably fun and educating discussion on a most important topic.

This was the other reason I pulled out of my near-orthodox conversion.

I was taken aback that my chrismation was not being recognized as valid. I had had a slavic descent ex-byzantine catholic friend who had converted in a russian orthodox church in the 60s and was only received by confession of faith and/or renunciation of errors. I assumed that this was the typical procedure. I had no idea some people have to start over from scratch.

The great irony here is that I also heard that MOST oriental orthodox/non-chalcedonian are received by confession of faith too. It became clear to me that the statement that "all heretics/schismatics" are treated equally was not true either.

This also explains why I constant ran across ethiopian and south indian oriental orthodox parishoners in antiochian churches when they couldnt find a nearby oriental church. for all I know they even received communion..(supposedly the antiochian church had allowed this in some circumstance?)

This area is quite eye opening for those who have completely neglected this area of church teaching.

The Antiochians in Australia by and large operate under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy of communing all comers.


The Church is quite aware of the high levels of intermarriage between Melkites, Antiochian Orthodox, Maronites, etc. and thus communes all comers who might hail from one of those jurisdictions, as boundaries have become quite blurred.

In some Antiochian parishes in Australia the priest has been known to pronounce a general absoloution prior to distributing communion in case any Orthodox members went off to the local maronite church or mosque the previous week.

If I truly believed that God was calling me to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy nothing would prevent me from doing so.

After all when I converted from High Church Anglicanism to Roman Catholicism I had no difficulty whatsoever accepting the idea that my Anglican confirmation was invalid.

There are many such isolated gestures that individual Orthodox patriarchs and bishops have made towards both Anglicans and Catholics over the centuries, but I do not think such isolated gestures can or should be used in an attempt to demonstrate a historical position of the Orthodox Church as a whole, or even the Orthodox Church in one particular region or patriarchate, regarding non-Orthodox sacraments. To demonstrate the historical Russian Orthodox position on Catholic sacraments, one should especially not use policies or gestures of the Moscow Patriarchate during the Soviet era. The Moscow Patriarchate during this period, particularly in its foreign and ecumenical fairs, was used as a tool of the Soviet government to promote a favorable view of the Soviet regime by convincing the world that there was no religious persecution under the Soviets. The work of the Moscow Patriarchate in the World Council of Churches (WCC), and in relations with the Pope of Rome, was largely calculated to persuade both that the Soviets allowed religious freedom. Such gestures, then, have to be understood in their political context before ascribing too much ecclesiological meaning to them.

The gestures of the Ecumenical Patriarch towards Pope Benedict during the latter’s visit to the Phanar in December of 2006, and other such gestures towards non-Orthodox by the Ecumenical Patriarch, have to be understood similarly. The Ecumenical Patriarchate is being oppressed under the Turkish authorities and has lost a great deal of power and authority as a result. The Orthodox population has dwindled significantly in the Patriarchate, and the resources of the Patriarchate would have nearly dried up without the support of the Greek Archdiocese in America and other dioceses that have been established under the Patriarch abroad. His ecumenical gestures are geared towards establishing very friendly relations with other countries and religious authorities in order to improve conditions of the Patriarchate under the Turks. The ecumenical gestures themselves, however, are often criticized and rejected by the Orthodox faithful as betraying Orthodox ecclesiology. Such gestures are tolerated in so far as the Ecumenical Patriarch has not actually concelebrated and communed with the Pope of Rome, but nevertheless his gestures should not be used to characterize historical and traditional Orthodox ecclesiology. In fact, those patriarchs who have historically made similar gestures out of political concerns, leading to such attempted unions as Lyons and Florence, have historically been condemned in the Orthodox Church as traitors and heretics.

Again, one will find many isolated gestures of Orthodox patriarchs and bishops which would seem to suggest that Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Non-Chalcedonians, and perhaps others are all equally members of the one Church, having “grace-filled” and “true” sacraments, but such isolated occurrences are not sufficient to demonstrate the historical position of the Orthodox Church on the subject of non-Orthodox sacraments. The Serbian Patriarch in the mid-19th century permitted Anglicans to be communed in Serbia, for instance, but it would be a stretch to say that the Serbian Patriarch therefore has historically considered Anglican sacraments to be “complete”, “salvific”, “grace-filled”, etc. In the early 20th century, St. Raphael of Brooklyn permitted the scattered Orthodox in America who were under his omophorion to receive sacraments at Anglican churches. In this case, however, St. Raphael made a more careful examination of the Anglican faith and then changed his mind, finally referring to the Anglicans as heretics and even forbidding the Orthodox faithful to pray in Anglican churches. In an emergency, and in the absence of an Orthodox priest, St. Raphael preferred an Orthodox layman to perform a baptism rather than an Anglican or any other non-Orthodox clergyman. Sometimes these gestures arose out of political concerns and interests, and at other times out of simple misinformation and confusion. To establish what is the historical position of the Orthodox Church as a whole, or of a local Orthodox Church in particular, it is best to stick to historical documents which were distributed with Synodal approval and have remained in effect. If an official decision is made and then soon after revoked, or never actually put into effect, it may have been the wrong decision to begin with.

Christ is going to His Voluntary and Ever-Memorable Passion for our salvation!!

I think we've beat this issue to death. We have all learned that we are far apart when the Lord prays at the Last Supper that we may all be one--one in heart and mind and love for one another. And we're certainly far from the comment made by His Eminence.

So, for the sake of the Lord and for the sake of the charity He calls us to, given His example this week, I'm closing this thread.

Bob
Moderator