www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Western rite Orthodoxy problematic?

That indeeds is the rejoinder to so many who want to treat the historical exceptions as the rule. Some will point to a Nestorian Anaphora (Out of many) or a Gallican Anaphora (Out of many) and maintain that the Church had certain rites which did not have expressed epiklesia, while [i]ignoring all the other[/i] members of those respective families to explain anomalies, which by no means were ever the norm. Essentially, there is an unarguable congruence between Eastern and Western Rites in at least ordo until the thirteenth century, where a relative familial liturgical piety is observed, despite azymes and the rest of the Carolingian inferences (At this time in the West, the Eucharist was still received in both species by the faithful and this practice wasn't suppressed until the ravages of the Black Plague had beset Europe. The West did indeed observe the Apostolic practice of Communion in both kinds and this the practice of the Church. While the Gallican, Mozarabic, Celtic and early Roman rites used leavened Eucharistic bread prepared in much the same way as in the East as the use of azymes had been condemned by an ante Nicene Council, according to Eusebius, as "judaizing." Moreover, the theological understanding undergirding the Catholic Church's practice of leavened bread was that the unleavened was the "bread of the Old Covenant," scripturally, the "Bread of Haste" while the leavened was leavened by Christ from God the Father through the Holy Spirit and reflected the consecration of creation in a New Covenant and salvation in Christ Jesus. Generally the Western practice of administering the Eucharist was by intinction although earlier practices seem to have been an observance of having the people partake of separate kinds, first the Body administered by the Priest, then Cup-Blood-administered by him.) What was most distinguishing for a time was that the East prayed in Greek (and Slavonic) and the West prayed in Latin.

So irregularity is hardly at all a standard anyone should aspire to. Conducting a restoration on abberational practice undermines all attempts at abberation and simply reintroduces ancient error.

Should read:

...undermines all attempts at restoration...

And I am underscoring that the fundamental difference between Eastern and Western liturgical piety and ordo was essentially based in language.

I don't normally get involved in discussions like this but I feel that something very important is being omitted that needs to be stated.

The Patriarchates prior to 1054 were territorial and thus not totally ritual. We must not forget that part of the dispute between Pope Leo and Patriarch Michael was over Byzantine Rite churches in the Roman Patriarchate. Pope Leo had problems with them, but they were under his jurisdiction. Patriarch Michael retaliated and closed the Roman Rite churches under his jurisdiction. There was no external jurisdiction based upon Rite (and this is very much a later Catholic phenomenon after Reunions).

The Antiochian Archdiocese has its Western Rite parishes totally integrated into the local Diocese. The local bishop is their bishop, just as he is for a Byzantine Rite parish. And regardless of what people may think, this is the theology of the Undivided Church with one bishop per city, regardless of how his parishes served their Liturgies.

Ethnic jurisdictionalism is a diaspora product of Communism. The Bulgarians were condemned when The Exarchate was established in the 19th Century due to their insisting on jurisdiction over Bulgarians outside of the territory (the Greek Churches broke Communion with the Bulgarians whereas the Slavic Churches did not).

Among the recognized Orthodox Churches, jurisdiction over all Orthodox Christians regardless of ethnicity or ritual belongs to the Local Bishop. This is very much in line with St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Paul's Epistles to THE Church at Rome, Saloniki, Corinth, etc.

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

Totally off-topic, but it's been too long since I've seen a post by you, old friend, and I have to acknowledge it, pray that you are well, and wish for you a blessed Lent

Many years,

Neil

Well, there is an Antiochian Western Rite vicariate.. dosent that sort make a gray area (assuming the Antiochian Archdiocese's dioceses are actually dioceses)

And in the OCA there are two non-territorial dioceses (Romanian and Bulgarian if I recall correctly)

Nonetheless jurisdictionalism still exists.. there is an Ukrainian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, a Greek Orthodox bishop of Chicago, an OCA bishop of Chicago, a Serbian Orthodox bishop of Chicago, and a ROCOR bishop of Chicago

Anyways, by keeping parishes under one bishop (which while ancient as you note, is nontheless ignored as I detailed above) dosent this limit the long term development of a "western rite" in the Eastern Orthodox Chruch? These men are sent to regular Eastern Orthodox seminaries and ordained by "Eastern rite" bishops using "Eastern rite" ritual - so if a western ordination ritual is not acceptable then how are western liturgies acceptable? These are honest questions not trying to start a fight or anything. *edit* if the objective is to better accomadate converts by using liturgies acceptable to Orthodox Christians but at the same time familiar to the target population being evangelized, how dose a Greek rite based education help? Do they get instruction on how to celebrate Western ritual and the theology behind the western ritual in seminary or are they sort of self taught? *edit*

Also off topic, many Eastern Orthodox (online) often criticize Roman Catholic rituals and devotions (indeed reconfirming or in ROCOR's case rebaptizing Rman Catholic Converts), while these rituals are actually used in the Antiochian Western Rite - Divine Liturgy of Saint Gregory, Rosary, Stations of the Cross, a devotion clearly based of sacred heart (akahist to sweetest Jesus I think its called?) - now dont Orthodox Christians see a problem with this? As with rebaptizing arnt they aware of the former policies of the Russian Orthodox Church where convert clergy where taken in by vesting? Im thinking late 19th century Poland here where convert Roman Catholic clergy were taken in that way... so clearly some respect was given to their Western ordinations. Indeed the Russian Church if I recall correctly historically recognized legit Trintarian baptism by other Christian religions, where as the Ecumenical patriarchate would rebaptize... but oddly ROCOR rebaptizes.. maybe someone can clarify this

I agree with everything you posted but I wanted to add my two sense in on this quote/question.


Most of the Priests who serve in the Western Rite within American Orthodoxy are converts who served as priests in the Anglican tradition.(please correct me if I am wrong but I pretty sure this is an accurate statement) So they are well versed in western liturgy- some Western rite Orthodox liturgies are simply an adaptation of the Book of Common Prayer. I think they go to Orthodox Seminaries to learn Orthodox theology since they are coming from the Anglican tradition.

How much Western Fathers they learn there is for someone else to answer.

I find it strange that the people who should be most sympathetic to them are the least.

In the AHOS (Antiochian House of Studies), Fr. David Hester has taught the Greek Fathers one year, and the Latin Fathers the next during the Residencies.

At the Doctoral Level, Fr. David teaches Canon Law, much of which goes back before The Schism. He was taught in Rome.

Western Rite Orthodox students at the AHOS are instructed in Western Rite liturgics by Father Edward Hughes (who is outstanding in both the Eastern and Western Rites). Doctoral students may also attend the Western Rite liturgical instruction, as they are not required to attend Rubrics and Byzantine or Slavic Music.

Fr. Edward may very well wear a Western Rite cassock during Services.

Students and Alumni in the Private AHOS Forum (both Orthodox and Catholic) know this. I'm sure that I can say that we are all so grateful to the Byzantine Forum for the great support rendered to the AHOS.

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

Even today, churches are not totally ritual. (Not that there aren't those Catholics who are completely ignorant on this point. Back when I participated on catholic.com, I lost track of how many times I had to correct someone who referred to "22 Eastern Catholic Rites".) Indeed, the Latin Church still (technically) has several different rites in it.

These are teaching slides showing Fr. Hughes celebrating the Rite of St. Gregory.

http://www.stgeorgelawrence.org/n_images/Albums_AKA_SlideShows/albumWestRite/slides/120.html