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Dave, you always bring up canon law, whereas in reality, canon law is whatever the Church chooses to make of it.
As regards the Eastern Code, both the Melkite and Ukrainian patriarchs would simply write it off as a bad piece of work, a Western document imposed on the Eastern Churches, to be followed only so long as it does not contradict the legitimate Tradition of the Eastern Churches, and it is judged prudent to follow.
Last edited by StuartK; 06/02/11 07:36 PM.
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The problem with the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches is that it was not written by the Eastern Churches. So, citing it to Eastern Christians will not have much of an impact.
I think it might be fair to say that while not all Melkites would agree with each of the answers above, a majority of them would. Expressing the general thoughts on these topics was more the OP's point, I presume, than making a perfect list that every living Melkite would find complete agreement with.
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Dave, you always bring up canon law, whereas in reality, canon law is whatever the Church chooses to make of it.
As regards the Eastern Code, both the Melkite and Ukrainian patriarchs would simply write it off as a bad piece of work, a Western document imposed on the Eastern Churches, to be followed only so long as it does not contradict the legitimate Tradition of the Eastern Churches, and it is judged prudent to follow. Stuart, I'm just citing official Catholic documents. Pope Benedict does not share your disdain for the Eastern Code. Last Fall, at a celebration marking the 20th anniversary of the promulgation of the Eastern Code of Canons, [ zenit.org] Pope Benedict said this about the Eastern Code: Dear friends, in the context of the Church's current effort for a new evangelization, canon law, as the peculiar and indispensable ordering of ecclesial fellowship, will not fail to contribute to the life and the mission of the Church in the world, if all the components of the People of God know how to interpret is wisely and apply it faithfully. Thus, I exhort, as did the venerable John Paul II, all the beloved children of the Eastern Churches "to observe the precepts set down with a sincere heart and a humble will, not in the least doubting that the Eastern Churches will provide in the best way possible for the good of the souls of faithful Christians with renewed discipline, and that they will always flourish and carry out the task entrusted to them under the protection of the glorious and blessed ever Virgin Mary, who in all truth is called 'Theotokos' and who shines as the great mother of the universal Church" ("Sacri canones"). From Pope Benedict's viewpoint, there is no disparity between the Eastern Code of Canons and the encyclicals Ut Unum Sint and Oriental Lumen written by Pope John Paul II. He said: The "Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium" was followed by two other important documents of the magisterium of John Paul II: the encyclical letter "Ut unum sint" (1995) and the apostolic letter "Orientale Lumen" (1995). Furthermore, we cannot forget the "Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism" published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (1993) and the instruction of the Congregation for Eastern Churches about the application of the liturgical prescriptions of the Code (1996). In these authoritative documents of the magisterium various canons of the "Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium," just as the "Codex Iuris Canonici," are textually cited, commented on and applied to the life of the Church. A PDF version of the Eastern Code can be read online here. [ americancatholictruthsociety.com]
Last edited by DTBrown; 06/02/11 09:48 PM.
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I'm just citing official Catholic documents. Pope Benedict does not share your disdain for the Eastern Code. No, but many of our Patriarchs and God-Loving Bishops do. And their voices count more than that of the Pope. Thus, I exhort, as did the venerable John Paul II, all the beloved children of the Eastern Churches "to observe the precepts set down with a sincere heart and a humble will, not in the least doubting that the Eastern Churches will provide in the best way possible for the good of the souls of faithful Christians with renewed discipline, and that they will always flourish and carry out the task entrusted to them under the protection of the glorious and blessed ever Virgin Mary, who in all truth is called 'Theotokos' and who shines as the great mother of the universal Church" ("Sacri canones"). Well, that's certainly condescending. Essentially, he's saying, "I know your Tradition and your pastoral needs better than you do". I think a lot of us do not concur. " In these authoritative documents of the magisterium various canons of the "Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium," just as the "Codex Iuris Canonici," are textually cited, commented on and applied to the life of the Church." And, as always, please overlook any internal contradictions among these documents, because, really, we do know what's best for you. Honest.
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...but to all those Greek Catholics who truly take Vatican II seriously (amongst other church documents and directives). This seems a little circular. Basically, "because I take Vatican II so seriously, I reject the notion that it is an ecumenical council. Because this council made up of the pope and mainly Roman bishops has directed me to be more Eastern, I say now that the pope lacks authority over my Church, and I say it on, well, his ....um...authority". I'm just not sure this works.
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Nor must we forget the observation of the peerless canonist, the late Msgr. Victor Pospishil, "no Eastern hierarch in his right mind would renew communion with Rome under the circumstances envisioned by the CCEO"!
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Nor must we forget the observation of the peerless canonist, the late Msgr. Victor Pospishil, "no Eastern hierarch in his right mind would renew communion with Rome under the circumstances envisioned by the CCEO"! May his memory be eternal. Thank you for reminding me of this quote...I think it could be taken a step further to say why would one remain in communion with Rome if this is what is expected???
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Could you tell us more? I've never heard EWTN refer to the Melkite Church as "schismatic" and "dissident." See Melkites Are Misunderstood [ melkite.org] on the Archeparchy's own website. Our role is made more difficult by well meaning, if uninformed members of our own Catholic Church. The following sadly inaccurate and misleading statement was issued by the most prominent American Catholic broadcasting network. This sad misstatement is being shared here at the urging of Father Rod McRae - not to belittle the original writer or embarrass the broadcasting company - but rather so such misinformation can be publicly corrected. The reply was written by Father John Mowatt, a Russian Catholic priest. Both the original statement and Father Mowatt's reply have been printed side-by-side for better analysis. I think there is only one "most prominent American Catholic broadcasting network"--how many people can name even one other? Some of the tendentious statements made on that network: This is one of the most disaffected groups among the Eastern Rite Catholics. Unlike other Byzantine Catholics, this group is headed by a patriarch who is accustomed to seeing himself as one of the equals among who the Pope of Rome (the Patriarch of the West) is agreed to be the first.
The current patriarch [Maximos V of blessed memory] prior [sic] has even permitted the marriage of ordained men, the tradition among them (as with the Orthodox) is to permit the ordaining of men who have already been married, although they favor a celibate episcopate. (The marriage of ordained clergy appears to have been a Protestant innovation in Christendom).
Last edited by StuartK; 06/03/11 09:34 AM.
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May his memory be eternal. Thank you for reminding me of this quote...I think it could be taken a step further to say why would one remain in communion with Rome if this is what is expected??? Vladyka Vsevolod of Scopelos, may his memory be eternal, used to say the real sticking point on the Papacy was its refusal to be judged or held accountable for its actions, for it is a basic point of all law that no man may be judge of his own case, but the Code of Canons insists that the Pope is precisely that. In addition, if the canons are taken literally, the Pope cannot be bound either by the decisions of his predecessors, or even his own earlier decisions. As Vladyka liked to say, "Nobody would buy a used car from a man under those conditions". As to why one wold remain in communion under those conditions, the answer is simple: the canons are seldom if ever applied and when they are, never in their literal sense.
Last edited by StuartK; 06/03/11 09:40 AM.
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Vladyka Vsevolod of Scopelos, may his memory be eternal, used to say the real sticking point on the Papacy was its refusal to be judged or held accountable for its actions, for it is a basic point of all law that no man may be judge of his own case, but the Code of Canons insists that the Pope is precisely that. In addition, if the canons are taken literally, the Pope cannot be bound either by the decisions of his predecessors, or even his own earlier decisions. As Vladyka liked to say, "Nobody would buy a used car from a man under those conditions". God bless Vladyka Vsevolod! I think he had hit the nail right on the head. In regards to "the cannons are seldom if ever applied..." My question is then why do they exist? We could look at the canons that are never adhered to, such as not using a jewish doctor, they were created during a time in history when something was happening which no longer makes any sense...hence it is disregarded, the canon being discussed is very recent...1993...If you belong to a church that thinks so little of you, doesn't that signal there are issues...in my opinion, serious issues that should not simply be brushed aside...
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As to why one wold remain in communion under those conditions, the answer is simple: the canons are seldom if ever applied and when they are, never in their literal sense. So, the Eastern Code is already obsolete, despite the recent statement by Pope Benedict? It's the CCEO that supports the whole bureaucracy of the Eastern Congregation in Rome, which acts as representative spokesman for the Pope. It is the Eastern Congregation which gives final "consideration" to such things as the new UGCC Catechism [ stjosaphateparchy.org] (see page 3 of the pdf in the link) or to approval, postponement or promulgation of Particular Law for Eastern Catholic jurisdictions and is the medium for appointment [ eparchyofphoenix.org] of Eastern Catholic Bishops (either directly or by approval of nominating lists). It is well acknowledged there are a few minor issues that are not resolved with the Code and how it is applied but the situation is hardly what you describe.
Last edited by DTBrown; 06/03/11 10:11 AM.
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Stuart,
Thank you for the info regarding EWTN and the Melkites. Interesting read.
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...the Pope cannot be bound ... As Vladyka liked to say, "Nobody would buy a used car from a man under those conditions". There really isn't a choice since Peter alone was given the keys.
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There really isn't a choice since Peter alone was given the keys. That assertion depends a great deal on how you read scripture. The fathers wouldn't agree with such a sentiment.
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There really isn't a choice since Peter alone was given the keys. That assertion depends a great deal on how you read scripture. The fathers wouldn't agree with such a sentiment. Easily said, but which Fathers? And on the key point, read the scriptures and tell us, who else was given the keys?
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