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So, as a test, remove all the non-essentials and consider what emerges. I think Eucharistic ecclesiology is a great model for the Church. As for removing the current structures in place in the Church, that's up to Bishops. The doing of course, but why avoid testing the theology -- argue to no end about peripherals and avoid what is the essence? And it's more than just a model. It's the Bishops who decide such things, not us. And you're right, it's more than a model.
Last edited by DTBrown; 06/05/11 10:18 AM.
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So, as a test, remove all the non-essentials and consider what emerges. I think Eucharistic ecclesiology is a great model for the Church. As for removing the current structures in place in the Church, that's up to Bishops. The doing of course, but why avoid testing the theology -- argue to no end about peripherals and avoid what is the essence? And it's more than just a model. It's the Bishops who decide such things, not us. And you're right, it's more than a model. The Bishops decide and guide, but I was hoping the "test" would be illuminating. (I am not, of course, insisting on such a response by anyone.) The faithful, too, are theologians in their own way: CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION * The teaching office 889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."
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It's a little bit pointless and tautological to put forward as authority a document whose authority your critics don't acknowledge.
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It's a little bit pointless and tautological to put forward as authority a document whose authority your critics don't acknowledge. If I were putting it forth solely as an authority, but I did not. I give the reference and the words. I think they are good words and true and in that sense, on their own merit, an "authority" for us all.
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It's a little bit pointless and tautological to put forward as authority a document whose authority your critics don't acknowledge. Stuart: I must have missed something. I haven't "put forward as authority" any document since I reopened this topic for discussion. I simply tried to focus what impressions I have gathered reading the positions of others in the ecumenical dialogue that is ongoing. My own thought at this point is that there is a retrenching going on in all the Churches and ecclesial communities. Bob
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I would guess that Stuart used the "Quick Reply", and hence [Re: theophan] was automatically put at the top of his post.
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Rome is involved in every episcopal ordination of every Eastern Catholic Church in the world -- either by direct appointment or by vetting the nominating lists for episcopal elections -- patriarchal or otherwise. Is that true? I was under the impression that was not the case within a patriarchate's "canonical territory". From The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches: [ americancatholictruthsociety.com] Canon 181 - §1. Bishops inside the territorial boundaries of the patriarchal Church are nominated to a vacant see or to fulfill another function by canonical election according to the norms of cann. 947-957, unless otherwise provided in common law. §2. Other bishops are appointed by the Roman Pontiff without prejudice to cann. 149 and 168.
Canon 182 - §1. Candidates suitable for the episcopate can be proposed only by members of the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church who can, according to the norm of particular law, collect information and documents which are necessary to establish the suitability of the candidates, hearing, if they think it appropriate, secretly and individually, certain presbyters or also other Christian faithful outstanding in prudence and Christian life.
§3. Unless particular law approved by the Roman Pontiff states otherwise, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church is to examine the names of the candidates and compile a list of the candidates by secret ballot, which is to be transmitted through the patriarch to the Apostolic See to obtain the assent of the Roman Pontiff. §4. The assent of the Roman Pontiff once given for an individual candidate is valid until it has been explicitly revoked, in which case the name of the candidate is to be removed from the list.
Canon 184 - §1. If the one elected is on the list of candidates which the Roman Pontiff has already approved, he is to be informed secretly of the results of the election by the patriarch. §2. If the one elected accepts the election, the patriarch is to notify the Apostolic See immediately of the acceptance of the election and the day of proclamation. Canon 185 - §1. If the one elected is not on the list of candidates, the patriarch is immediately to notify the Apostolic See of the completed election in order to obtain the approval of the Roman Pontiff, secrecy being observed by all who in any way know the results of the election, even toward the one elected, until notification of the assent has reached the patriarch. §2. After obtaining the approval of the Roman Pontiff, the patriarch secretly is to inform the one elected of the election and acts according to the norms of can. 184, §2. Thanks for the info, DT. I've either never heard that before or else forgotten it.
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I think we've strayed from the topic of papal infallibility to the nomination and election of Catholic bishops.
If you wish to discuss the nomination and election of Catholic bishops, lets' begin a new thread.
Bob
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I think we've strayed from the topic of papal infallibility to the nomination and election of Catholic bishops.
If you wish to discuss the nomination and election of Catholic bishops, lets' begin a new thread.
Bob
Moderator It was more a matter of wanting to thank DTBrown.
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The fires have died on this point, but I want to respond to a question that I believe was addressed to me. Suppose it just said: "Sometimes infallibility is exercised by a group of bishops, as when the Second Council of Nicea settled the issue of icons (787), and sometimes infallibility is exercised by a single bishop, as when Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of Mary's assumption (1950)." How would that be? Both cases as stated are imprecise and incomplete: the first allowing the absence of confirmation by the protos, the second implying an individualistic action by any bishop. And though the Pope may act solely he (e.g. Pius XII above) does not act alone.
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The fires have died on this point, but I want to respond to a question that I believe was addressed to me. Suppose it just said: "Sometimes infallibility is exercised by a group of bishops, as when the Second Council of Nicea settled the issue of icons (787), and sometimes infallibility is exercised by a single bishop, as when Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of Mary's assumption (1950)." How would that be? Both cases as stated are imprecise and incomplete: the first allowing the absence of confirmation by the protos, the second implying an individualistic action by any bishop.  So only two of the New Testament books (First and Second Peter) are infallible? And though the Pope may act solely he (e.g. Pius XII above) does not act alone. Sorry. I guess I should have said "solely".
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The quote is, on its face, factually incorrect, an example of wishful thinking at best, disingenuous and prevaricative at worst. The fact that 90% of the CCEO is simply a restatement of the CC proves the point. I was greatly disappointed when I got a copy of the CCEO, because I found out that the CIC and CCEO are nearly identical. I should have saved the money and bought a text with real value.
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As Father Lawrence Cross noted, it is the duty of every Eastern Catholic to protest--"to the point of schism if need be"--any attempt by the Church of Rome to impose upon the authentic Tradition of the Eastern Churches. I think Rome knows this full well, which is why it has "agreed to disagree" with the Melkite Synod, and increasingly with the UGCC. Since you are quoting a comment attributed to Father Cross, it's important to provide the reference so that one may read the comment in its context. Was this from a book or speech? Is it available on-line? Thanks.
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It's in his book Eastern Christianity: The Byzantine Tradition (Eastern Christian Publications, Fairfax, VA, 1999), p.121: Among Roman Catholics, they [the Eastern Catholic Churches] must defend, to the brink of schism if necessary, the legitimate claims of Eastern theology, Church life and spirituality. They must reject all encroachment upon the ancient rights and dignity of the East, such as celibacy laws for clergy. If they fail, the Orthodox will never be convinced that such pressures would not be applied to them in a reunited Church. Father Lawrence repeated this passage verbatim in his presentation at the Orientale Lumen Conference.
Last edited by StuartK; 06/14/11 06:50 PM.
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