www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Marian Dogma - Defining too much

Mary's sole purpose - the reason "her soul magnified the Lord" - was, and is, to bring Christ Jesus to us. That is why we say that all graces come to us through her - because, when all is said and done, all graces come to us through Jesus Christ - who chose to come to us through this humble virgin.

And you find that offensive because ... ?

Dear Dolly,

As St Paul said, Salvation is through the Man Jesus Christ or through His Humanity.

The Humanity of Christ that we receive in each and every Holy Communion was given us from the Virgin Mary.

She is the Ladder that Jacob foresaw in his dream on which descended to us the Son of God.

Alex

Can enough ever be said about the glories of Mary, she is "the highest honor of our people ,the glory of Israel".
She is the crown and summit of all that we are called to be in Christ her Divine Son.
Those who speak against the Blessed Virgin Mary do so because they have a faulty underestand of humanity.
The grace is not her grace but that of Jesus.
Stephanos I

Through the prayers of the Mother of God O Saviour save our souls.

Dear Stephanos,

Now you are going too far here, Father in Christ!

I don't think Daniel is speaking against the Mother of God, he just has concerns about certain dogmatic propositions.

What was it John Henry Cardinal Newman said about Protestants approaching Catholicism with difficulties about this or that aspect of the Catholic faith?

I believe he said, "A thousand difficulties do not equal one doubt!"

Wasn't he wonderful?

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

LatinTrad, i found nothing at all from some graces coming from jesus thourgh the hands of mary. But what i do have a problem with is that ALL GRACES, MUST and DO come from Jesus THROUGH mary 1st. That in my opinion is wrong and down plays Jesus' role.

Stephanios
I do not slander, or give any less honor to what mary is due. Orthodox Catholic is correct in his last post. Im just concern about such doctrinal views such as this regarding the Holy Theotokos.

Through the Holy+Theotokos
Daniel

I Find*

Orthodox Catholic,
I suggest that you re read my post!
Did I in any place say that Daniel was speaking against the Mother of God? No!
I said, "those" who speack against the Mother of God."
I was your own mind that linked and association that I never intended.
Stephanos I

Dear Patriarch Stephanos,

I apologise for reading into what you wrote.

But Daniel himself felt that you imputed that motive to him - and it seemed that you were.

If you had no intention of doing so, there was no need for that statement in your post, since we were addressing Daniel's concerns alone.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

O.K., I see where you are coming from.

Certainly, the Mother of God and the Saints can gain for us certain graces through our veneration of them and our requests of their generosity to pray for us.

In a general, universal sense, the Saints are always praying for us as part of the Divine Economia - as are all members of the Church, on earth and in the next life.

Everything comes to us from the Father through the Son by means of the Holy Spirit, as we know, and at the intercessions of the Mother of God, the Angels and the Saints, and the entire Church that is the Communion of Saints that we also affirm in the Creed.

God Himself chose to save us through the act of Mediation of His Incarnate Son. God comes to us where we are, as we are, and by means of others.

The intercession of all the Saints is the Holy Spirit's affirmation that, yes, humanity is indeed saved and transfigured through Theosis.

The Saints are the Icon of the Holy Spirit Who works ceaselessly to deify us in Christ.

Christ lives in His Saints, as the Incarnate God He is, by means of the Holy Spirit.

As we know, our salvation not only depends on Christ and the intercession of the Saints - it also depends on our reaching out to the Incarnate Christ Who lives in the poor and suffering in this world and those Whom God deigns to send us so we may serve Christ in them.

God sends every grace of His to us through the Humanity of Christ. In so doing, He has empowered our Humanity to receive it and does so especially through the Mother of God and the Saints who are the first to be made Christ-like and who, following Christ, become bearers of Christ's Grace to us, with Him.

Alex

Why worry about defining - just pray! (Does this sound just a bit Byzantine? )
Most Holy Theotokos, save us.
Presvyataya Bohorodice, spasi nas.

Well, unfortunately, because we live in a world where people like the Secular Web [infidels.org] , for example, are *actively* trying to convince as many people as possible that Christianity is a crock, and insist they can prove it, we need to be able to give answers to those who are confused by their sophisticated arguments.

Which means, like it or not, we're gonna have to have some definitions.

Sorry every buddy it wasnt St. Louis Demontfort
I dont know where i got his name from, but this is the quote that i was looking into on the article of EWTN. Ill try to figure out were i got St. Louis From.

In Christ +
Daniel

Sorry St. Louis!

Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Yes, but St Louis did repeat that and based much of his writing on that and other Marian themes.

The Pope himself, when he was a seminarian, was questioning the issue of Marian devotion.

But then he found the "True Devotion to Mary" by Montfort and discovered "fresh perspectives."

He has prayed the Rosary daily (and many more decades that we do ) ever since.

My own experience is that the Rosary "pulls" me into the Jesus Prayer automatically.

For me, the most beautiful expression of St Louis de Montfort is when he says: "When the Holy Spirit finds the Virgin Mary in a soul, he does to that soul, what He did to the Virgin Mary at the Annunciation - He forms Jesus Christ in it."

Mary the Mother of God leads us to her Son and contemplating her in the life of Christ really brings home to us the Incarnation of God the Word in Christ Jesus our Saviour.

I'll get off my soap box now. Do you think I would have made a good priest?

Alex

Dear Dolly,

Ah, yes, but I think that our best defence against atheist groupies like that is experiential, not intellectual.

It is more important to experience the Mother of God in prayer and meditation, liturgically and in private.

St Seraphim of Sarov once said, "Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls will be converted around you."

Wasn't that nice?

Alex