www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization I want to ask my priest to have Orthros at our parish but....

I am not an active member of the parish I attend, and I do not have a close relationship with the priest or deacons there either. I'm Chaldean so I often alternate between going to Chaldean parishes and the local Melkite parish.

I do love attending the Melkite DL, and I have spoken to the reverend father on occasion but I fear it is too much to ask him to do this. The only noticeable Latinizations at this parish are a lack of Saturday Vespers and Sunday Orthros, and I would like them to be celebrated there.

I fear that asking the parish to have these services sounds too demanding, especially from someone who isn't an active member. One solution I know is to become more active in the Melkite parish, but I don't know if I can do that. Is there a way that I can approach the parish priest or deacons about this issue without sounding too demanding or offensive?

Thanks.

Just ask. The worst he can do is say no.

I keep thinking it would be rude of me to just ask him to do it. Sunday Orthros is typically more than an hour and is quite complex.

Perhaps rather than asking him to do it -- which results in a one word answer (yes or no) -- ask him why it is not done. That will, at the very least, start a conversation about it.

If you can cantor Orthros then volunteer to do so. Otherwise, I think your heart is leading you properly. To place this request upon a parish which probably isn't ready would be a bit too much.

My brother posters will probably disagree with me but it seems to me similar to visiting someone, being invited to a meal and then asking if you can have a dessert.

We do Orthros every Sunday. It usually takes an hour, except on Polyeleos feasts. Divine Liturgy begins immediately afterwards.

I have to say one of the blessings I have experienced since moving to the Melkite Church is a much richer liturgical life. As a Ruthenian, Vespers was something exceptional (true Vespers, not the hybrid "Vespergy" normally conducted when someone wants to celebrate a feast early), and Orthros non-existent. I seriously doubt there are many cantors (or even priests) in the Metropolia who could celebrate Orthros properly without a lot of boning up.

The omission of Orthros from parish life is, IMO, kinda like eliminating part of the whole meal, like serving the entire meal except for beverages.

Sat. eve. vespers - NOT "vespergy" - has been introduced into our parish and we have 3rd. Hour almost every Sun. before DL.

In our Ruthenian parish, the weekly 5pm "Vigil Liturgy" on Saturdays was laid to rest at the beginning of the Great Fast this year, and we have been having Great Vespers on Saturdays in its place. What a joy this is! I am especially thrilled, as I had "lobbied" for it over the last few years.

As Stuart (I think it was he) noted, there must be someone willing to learn how to put the parts together correctly each week, and who can cantor it. We have now managed to do that for Great Vespers (well, we're still learning, and a steep learning curve it's been, but very rewarding!) It's no small thing for a parish if they don't have a skilled cantor willing and able to take it on.

A goal for the future for us could be Orthros, but right now we wouldn't have anyone available to learn it and cantor it. We do have a 15-20 minute abbreviated Matins before Divine Liturgy on Sundays, which little by little has had additional parts added to it. (Attendance at Great Vespers is still small, and not a lot of people make it a point to arrive before Matins begins)

From our experience with implementing Great Vespers, I can attest that it takes a lot of time and energy to learn a service like this, and I think the OP might need to take that into consideration in broaching the subject with his priest.

It was Archimandrite Nicholas of Holy Resurrection Monastery who said, more than a decade ago at the Orientale Lumen Conference, that the revitalization of the Ruthenian Church required living in accordance with the Typicon--following the liturgical rites in their fullness, including the restoration of the Liturgy of the Hours. I imagine this made him very popular among the the Powers That Be in the Metropolia, and goes a long way to explaining why the Monastery is now under the omophorion of Bishop John Michael.

I agree that Orthros and Matins are vital services, but they do require work and commitment on the part of the priest and the cantors/singers.

Having done it myself (as choir leader), I can tell you that starting Orthros from scratch is really hard, and you need truly dedicated cantors/singers to follow through with it. There really is a pretty steep learning curve, and I still feel lost on special feast days. So asking a priest to start doing Orthros when you yourself don't feel prepared to participate in it on a regular basis is asking a lot of a priest.

I hope it works out well for you.

I've attended both Slavic and Greek Orthodox parishes and it seems to be Slavic practice to have Vespers on Saturday evening and the Hours before DL on Sunday and Feast day mornings. The Greek parishes, on the other hand, usually have Orthros on Sunday morning followed by DL.

In the book, The Orthodox church, Timothy Ware states that this is the usual practice among the Orthodox.

Is trying to have all three services on a weekend and/or Feast asking a bit much of 21st century parishioners?

Bob

In our parish (St. Michael's UGCC) in Grand Rapids, it's too much. We have either orthos or the third/sixth hour before the Liturgy and unfortunately despite our best efforts attendance is very low. It's a lot of work as cantor to sing these offices as well as the Liturgy, especially when participation is low.

Orthos is complicated and thanks be to God we have a retired Melkite priest and his wife who has helped tremendously. I feel that I have grown spiritually from participating in these services.

We use the Basilian Fathers Divine Office book (Stamford) which, in most cases, is a good resource.

Does anyone know if this has been reprinted yet? I heard a new edition was due this year.

Best wishes to all!
Stefan-Ivan

It is not asking if the right resources are available, and its importance is preached from the pulpit. In the GOA Metropolis of Chicago (and Denver, iirc), celebration of Vespers is required in addition to regular celebration of Orthros and Divine Liturgy. In Cedar Rapids and Iowa City, IA, there are four very small Orthodox parishes and missions (1 GOA, 2 Antiochean, 1 Greek Old Calendar), and all four have Vespers, Orthros/Matins and Liturgy for feasts and Sundays, even though there are limited resources.

When there is a will, there is a way...

In the case of the GOA, it helps that the Archdiocese publishes a series of books annually that have the principle days of the year in the context of the each respective service so there is no flipping back and forth and between different books (except to go from one side of the page to the other to switch between Greek and English). For the Byz Cath Church, the Metropolitan Cantor Institute has a growing catalogue for materials ready to print along with instructional material. I do not know the Melkite situation, or how extensive their cantor training tapes go. The Antiochean Archdiocese has printable materials, and for modern translations using Byzantine music Fr Seraphim Dedes is the best source.

There is a lot of flexiblity in Orthros-there is a lot of material in the service that gets cut in parochial pratice. When i say it at home (thus replacing Priest/Deacon parts with Lord, have mercy), keeping it to one canon, and minimal singing, it's a mininum of two hours. I wonder if one is starting out, if structuring Orthros closer to the Paraklesis is the best way to start out.

akemner:

Christ is in our midst!!

I just asked a rhetorical question. My experience in the Greek parish was that about half the congregation came in between the Gospel and the Great Entrance of the DL. They missed Orthros altogether, though I agree that the Church's riches were missed. The Slav parishes had very few attend Vespers compared to the Sunday morning DL. So that's why I wondered.

I agree that people need to be catechised about the spiritual treasures and nourishment available and I guess it comes down to the question posed to St. Peter:

"Who do you say that I am?" and flowing from it

"What do I mean to you?" and then

"How will you live your life after you answer the first two questions?"

But I guess these questions can be posed to any Christian wherever he finds himself. They get to the heart of our commitment.

Bob

By "Slavic" Orthodox parishes, perhaps you mean the OCA (which claims to no longer be "Slavic," but American)? Or perhaps you refer to Carpatho-Russian parishes?

In parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church it is normative to serve Vespers, Matins, the First, Third, and Sixth Hours, as well as the Divine Liturgy for every Sunday and Holy Day. As far as I know, it is also normative in the Antiochian Archdiocese for Vespers and Matins to be served, as well as the Divine Liturgy every Sunday. I certainly do NOT think that trying to have all three services on a weekend and/or Feast asking a bit much of 21st century parishioners. Parishioners can and do decide what services they will attend, and how much of each service they attend, that does not relieve the priest and parish of the responsibility to serve a full range of services for each Sunday and Holy Day.

Fr David Straut