www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Marian Dogma - Defining too much

Very well put in your last post Orthodox Catholic!
My sentiments exactly. I dont understand why others dont see it so clearly but then again mayber they havent studied the faith for over 40 years.
Stephanos I

I think if one were to ask whom exalts the Virign Mary the most, then I would have to say it is the East.
Let me quote a liturgical text on Mary.
"She who is higher than the heavens and more glorious than the Cherubim. She who is held in greater honor than all creation, she who by reason of her surpassing purity became the receiver of the everlasting essence, today commends her most pure soul into the hands of her Son. With her, all things are filled with joy, and she bestows great mercy on us."

I think that admiration and devotion has been lost in the West.

When you look at the early infant community of the Church of Rome we see a very differnt picture.
Especiall in two iconographic depictions of the Mother of God.

First there is the Virgin with the Prophet in the Catacomb of Priscilla on the vis Salaria.
The Virgin is seated on a throne with the infant Jesus on her lap, (which signifies that Mary has an honor above even the Prophets).
The prophet stands beside her and points ot her.

Who is this prophet? Some say that it is the prophet Balaam because over Mary is an eight pointed star. "A star shall come forth from Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel."
Others see it as Isaiah "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call him Emmanuel."
This is the oldest depiction in the Church of the West of the Blessed Virgin Mary and tells us something of the attitude of the Church of Rome.

The other one a later portrayal of the Virgin is in the orans position of intercession located in the Great Cemetary on the via Nomentana dating from the middle of the fourth century.
Both these frescoes show the special feelings of the early Christians of Rome for the Mother of God.
The angel raises his hand to heaven as if to speak and obiously indicates that Mary is far superior even to the angels.

Food for thought.
Stephanos I

More Glorius then the Cherabim beyond compare to the Seraphim you the Theotokos we magnify.

In Christ+
Daniel

I believe the West has an incredibly strong devotion to the Mother of God. The East doesn't have a monopoly on this.

Logos Teen

1. It's not a contest!

2. It's interesting that you don't think we exalt Mary *enough*, while fundamentalist Protestants think we exalt her *too much*.

The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle. :-)

Theist Gal
Please read the post again. It is just the opposite. I said the East highly magnifies the Mother of God. And it was not said as if it were a contest. I was just making an observance.
Stephanos I
My comment was that the West does not venerate Mary as much as it once did.

Was just reading some patristic works from Irenaeus. Very interesting as to what they say about the mediation Mary played in the economy of salvation.

Even though Eve had Adam for a husband , she was still a virgin ... By disobeying, she bacame the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race. In the same way, Mary, though she also had a husband, was still a virgin, and by obeying, she became the cause of salvation for herselfand for the whole human race.. The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience What Eve bound through her unbelief, Mary loosed by her faith."
Thus the Eve- Mary parrallel in early patristics.

Stephanos I

Any comments?

Dear Father,

This parallel is still taught as the Orthodox viewpoint...Mary is the 'new Eve'.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

If Eve of old was the "mother of the living", then all human life today has descended from her. Is it too much of a stretch to say that all redeemed life - the life of grace in Christ - has descended from the Blessed Virgin Mary, the new Eve? If the new Eve is the mother of the Church and our spiritual mother, then we have all received grace through her.

I have no problem saying that she is the Mediatrix of all graces; but I have not always believed this. I have only recently come to understand this teaching. Because of the potential for misunderstanding, though, I would not be in favor of a new dogmatic pronouncement on the subject.

Dave

Dave,
That is EXACTLY the reason that a pronoucement should be made, For clairification and so that erroneous opinions concerning this belief of the Christian Church from the very begining do not spread. To combat error on both sides.

I was once of your mind but have changed my opionion the more I studied the issue.

Stephanos I

Through the prayers of the Mother of God O Savior save our souls.

Dear Friends,

It is best to leave such pronouncements alone precisely because misunderstanding can occur.

I read in one Orthodox commentary about how the Mother of God "co-suffered" with her Son . . .

And this is evident from the liturgical prayers of the East as well.

The East has catechised through the liturgy and has tended not to separate the two.

This is why the East has never had any doctrinal pronouncements on the Mother of God other than what are contained in the teachings of the Councils.

The Mother of God is a mystery that must always be experienced through liturgical and private prayer.

I have never met anyone who has a prayerful relationship to the Mother of Christ our God who has denied to me her holiness from her Conception, her Assumption etc.

I have met Protestants who have a devotion to Mary who believe as Catholics and Orthodox do about the Mother of God.

If people are weak in faith about her, they are weak in prayer to her.

Alex

Dear Dolly and Teen Logo,

Certainly the West has a great veneration for the Mother of God and, yes, this is not a contest.

But the East has had, I believe, a greater, consistent liturgical veneration for the Mother of God, whereas the West tends to express this, at least historically, more through private, paraliturgical devotions, revelations and visions etc.

But the West has made great strides in reestablishing a solid liturgical context for the Virgin Mary as Mother of the Church etc.

Alex

Dear Alex:

I couldn't have said it better myself. In my own case, it was only after I had "crossed the bridge" to Marian devotions (i.e., the Rosary and Angelus) that I came to a deeper understanding of her essential role in our salvation.

This was a difficult bridge for me to cross. Like many former Protestants, I thought had thought that Marian devotion (especially the type exemplified by Saint Louis de Montfort) was excessive at best, idolatrous at worst. In my study of Catholicism prior to my return to the Church, I came to a major decision point: I could accept nearly everything the Church taught, but the Marian dogmas (particularly the Immaculate Conception, the sinlessness of Mary, and the emphasis on her as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix) were too much for me. This was the only thing holding me back, as it were, from fully embracing the Faith.

The Catholic Church, in my opinion at the time, was going to far in honoring Mary - but I knew in my heart that as a Protestant, I had not gone far enough. The impasse in my mind was resolved through prayer - I asked the Lord to let me love His Mother as much as He loved her, neither more nor less.

Since then, my prayer has been answered. The Lord led me back to the Catholic Faith which I had once abandoned, and has given me a great love for His Blessed Mother. I am now studying St. Louis's True Devotion, and I am planning to make my Consecration on the feast of the Immaculate Conception (pray for me!).

I'm not sure how it is in the Eastern Churches, but certainly in the West we need to revive Marian devotion. The Holy Father's letter on the Rosary was a great help in this. But more needs to be done. I would agree, from what I've seen in Eastern Christianity (BC and Eastern Orthodox), her presence is much more clearly seen and felt. In the West, in many parishes, she has virtually "dropped off the radar screen." I ask my Eastern Brothers and Sisters to pray for those of us in the West who seek to return our Church to the proper devotion to her.

Dave
"Mere Catholic"

Dear Dave,

What a beautiful testimonial of the way the Holy Spirit is working so POWERFULLY in your life!

I too am into St Louis de Montfort's spirituality, and Angela helped me as I prepared to make my full consecration last year.

(Thank you again, Angela!)

Everything we believe about Maryam relates to the Incarnation of God the Word and Wisdom Incarnate - OLGS Jesus Christ!

This is very Evangelical as it is living a life consecrated to Jesus through the vehicle by which He came to us as our Incarnate Lord, His Mother.

Keep your rosary in one hand and the Cross in the other, like our Father among the Saints, Louis de Montfort!

Wear a red Cross, as he mentions, and keep an icon of Our Lady with you!

Say the Rosary daily - especially, if you like, the form with the interpolated phrases. At the end of your Rosary you will only be left with the prayer: "Jesus, Son of God, through the prayers of Your Most Pure Mother, have mercy on me a sinner!"

Whenever the Holy Spirit finds a soul, like you, united to the Mother of Jesus Christ, He does to that soul what He did to her long ago - He forms the full stature of Christ in it!

God Bless you in your journey with the Mother of God as She takes you to Her Son.

She knows Him well and She wants to introduce you to Him in a way that will unite all three of you forever.

Alex

Wonderful !

There are quite a few of us here now [ and they all know far more than me ]- and I'm sure I can say for all of us that we will be with you on that very special day.

Anhelyna