www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Icons & Iconography Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces"

Oh ok... Mater Dei likes to hand out literature and people put items on the cars in the parking lot...

The literature from teh church and what I found on my car was very "the world is going to hell in a handbasket" variety...

From an official Roman Catholic standpoint, there is a significant theological problem with the concept of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces -- Latin theology says that the sacrament are efficacious ex operae operato or through the workings of Christ. This is why Pope John Paul never declared that dogmatically.

The title co-redemptrix for the Latins implies the same role as Eastern Catholics when we pray "O Holy Theotokos save us."

Fr. Deacon Ed

I agree with the thrust of your post, and the distinctions you've made but that's not what "ex opere operato" means. The phrase means that the sacraments work by being worked. The sacrament comes into being and is effective by the very fact of the act having been acted, independent of the sanctity of the one performing or receiving the act. Google could probably explain it more succinctly than I have.

She participated in our salvation by bringing our Saviour to us. She is like the Church, bringing Jesus to us but also birthing us into the Church through baptism. She is our mother. Being Mediatrix doesn't detract from Jesus. Jesus is so much higher than Mary, the more we elevate Her the more we elevate Jesus.
The concept is often described as Jesus the cause of graces is the head Mary the neck which passes those graces to us the body.

Ditto. It seems to me that when people get bored with the ordinary practice of the faith they reach out for all sorts of things that are spiritually dangerous. There are all the superstitious little notes people leave in churches that promise all sorts of miracles if one but recites the attached prayer for so many days and so many times per day. There are the New Agers who "center" in front of icons in the middle of the night--got a group of them in my parish--and who pretend to be the next crop of mystics, receiving all sorts of deep revelations.

This just gives me a combo of nausea and chills.

Bob

The question being where does it stop? Mary is important. She is our joy and hope. Her yes to God allowed for our Salvation. But she is not divine and some of these things coming from the Latin Church (although not the mainstream) make her semi-divine and it is scary for me as an Easterner.

Jesus is our only Mediator and Advocate according to Scripture. Mary intercedes for us to her Son. Hers is the most powerful intersession. Only Jesus saves us by His death. He is the only Redeemer.

Father Deacon,

I fail to see the connection? Most Holy Theotokos save us is not the same things as Mary being co-redemptrix. Mary saving us in the first instance is a cry for help lifting us to her Son. She points us to him. I always looked at it like I am in a ship sinking in a sea of sins. I cry for Mary to pull me up out of the waters through her prayers and her sons Mercy.

Co-redemptrix means that she along with Christ redeems us.Christ the Incarnate Word is our redemption not His Mother.

While I certainly accept the very special place of Mary as an intercessor, I do not find this analogy helpful. It implies that all graces have to pass through Mary to us. It is clear that there all the saints can act as intercessors when we pray to them for help. And, of course, we can go directly to Jesus without an intercessor. Unless I am missing something there is no need for the intervention of Mary for me to receive graces via these alternative routes.

You mean to tell me there ISN'T a magic certain # of candles (you never know for sure what that # may be) you have to burn in order to get Mary or some saint to do your will? That making promises and vows to do such-and-such, or NOT to do such-and-such, might not result in God doing MY will?

Are you trying to suggest we are incapable of manipulating the Deity?

A lot of Catholics (and, I suspicion, Orthodox Christians as well) belonging to certain cultural groups would be mighty surprised to learn that!

sielos:

I had a discussion with my spiritual father many years ago about the idea of bargaining with God--promising Him something one would do in return for something He would be bound to do. He told me it was a dangerous thing. How dare we, the created, think we can gain some hold on God for anything? Beyond the thought is the actual sin of doing it. I know people who do it and it makes me shudder.

A suggestion was even made that when I ask for something/anything I should always add "if it be Your Will."

When I think about it, isn't this akin to God telling the Chosen People in the Old Testment that He cares nothing for animal sacrifices, tithes, etc. He wants contrite, humble hearts; acts of mercy (Hosea 6:6); generosity and other actions that show the fact that we are stewards of the good things He has given and that we are broken enough that we need Him more than He needs us. So all this other stuff is just a means to our acquiring the Holy Spirit of God, as St. Seraphim of Sarov tells us, it is not an end in itself or leverage in the spiritual world.

Bob

The point is that this is not what it means. The Latin teaching on this is that Mary intercedes for us constantly. She does not share an equal role with Jesus in salvation.

Fr. Deacon Ed

Nonetheless, the wording is unfortunate, and it would be a sucker bet indeed to say there are no people out there who do not think of Mary as the fourth person of the Trinity.

So, does that mean we should not say "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." in order to avoid from people thinking we believe in a "Quadrinity"?

Nope we should say it as the Holy Church prescribes but we should teach the proper, venerable, and Orthodox teaching concerning the Most Holy Theotokos and then we will have no problem with people falling into the "qyadrinity" heresy.

While you are correct about the Latin translation, the fact is that Christ effects the sacrament/mystery through the agency of the minister. It is not through Mary.

Father Deacon Ed