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Joined: Jul 2011
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Would you guys characterize the Byzantine church as more masculine? I get the impression, with the emphasis on asceticism, podvig, theosis, fast, and even the certain Old Testamental flavor of your liturgy and prayers, and ultimately what seems to be seen as saintly, is more masculine. More... stoic? I just became Roman but I'm already losing patience and getting upset because, as a 21 y/o metalhead man I feel like I'm being squeezed by the West's culture into a very soft, sentimental, emotional, sweet, and quite honestly quite weak and effeminate spirituality. This is not a slight against true femininity however, it's against a warped view of what Christian means as an adjective. I feel like these days you can't be considered a very Christian person if you aren't irenic and door-mat like. It's driving me up a wall, because I was always the kind of guy to set myself apart as being more civilized because I was "sensitive" and "refined"... then, as a late bloomer, my hormones finally kicked in and now I feel like tackling someone LOL. Not to mention I was originally drawn to Roman Catholicism because I was under the mistaken impression that these days it would be more focused on masculinity and transcendence than the CCM-style mushiness and joy stemming from Sola Fide's false sense of security. But instead I got OCP music and homilies about how sweet mothers are... with no mention of Mary or the day's readings... it's driving me mad.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Dear brother,
With all due respect, being Christian is not about masculinity versus femininity or a host of other dichotomies. The Holy Apostle Paul says it straight: "With Christ I am nailed to the cross. It is now no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me" (Gal. 2:19-20), and, "They who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires." (Gal. 5:24.)
There are many things I do not personally care for, including OCP music and mushy homilies. But we have to put our personal likes and dislikes in perspective. In the greater scheme of things, it is best to focus on what Christ calls us to do --- follow Him --- instead of reacting to a host of negative things and people around us. We are called to be witnesses to the Gospel. This should be our first order of business.
There is both a masculine and feminine aspect to Christianity. On the masculine side, there is the suffering of the Lord on the Cross, put to death by those he came to save. On the feminine side, there is the tender mercy of the Lord and his pure mother.
If you want a taste of Eastern spirituality, I recommend a spiritual classic, "The Way of the Pilgrim." It was written in the 19th century by an anonymous Russian believer. It is a quick read and I think you will enjoy it.
God bless you, and may you continue to follow in the Lord's footsteps.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Yeah, no matter how you cut it, Eastern Christianity is much more masculine than Western Christianity as currently practiced. As Frederica Matthewes-Green has written, there's only one Church in business today that writes liturgical music for basso profundo.
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Joined: Feb 2004
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I get very depressed thinking about the wide effeminate streak in the Latin Church.
It's the main reason, after my own sinfulness, that I didn't practice the faith for almost ten years.
I'm sure many souls have been and will be lost because of this problem.
There doesn't seem to be any fixing it, either, on a human level. Thankfully, God is in charge.
I doubt my corner of the world will turn around in the next 50 or so years I have to live, though.
Glory be to Jesus Christ and our Blessed Lady for bringing me to a Ukrainian Catholic parish.
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I think what is bugging me is that the Faith seems to have turned into Suburbianity...
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I never really thought of it this way in my head, but it's a feeling that I have always sensed without really expressing itself, but this is exactly it. It was a turnoff for me to in consideration of the Roman church.
I wonder how much ethnicity/culture plays a part as well, in the sense that I think culturally there is more "machismo" so to speak in the Eastern societies than in the West. Difficult to quantify, but I'm convinced it is significant. The beards alone outwardly signify this.
And this is not to discount all of the "West" either. I'm not sure how well this idea would go over in a RC church in South America, for instance.
To my mind, it seems to be an Anglicized femininity.
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Joined: Aug 2008
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I think what is bugging me is that the Faith seems to have turned into Suburbianity... I am not familiar with the term, "Surburbianity". Reading between the lines I think you are referring to something of a "You Gospel" or that everything will always be serendipitous for us, or turn out well? I could see your point on part of it, if that is what you are saying. Many people do not apply what their faith teaches. We are told that we will be persecuted and suffer for Christ's sake. I think we will always have various troubles in our lives. But how we choose to meet them is an important factor. Do we rely on God to overcome them or just roll over. I think few individuals exercise their faith in the way that Jesus intended for us. We are responsible for standing our ground and holding on to our faith no matter what the circumstances. For instance, I don't think Jesus intended for us to be ill or remain in such a state, but many people seem to accept it without question that it is God's will and never make the leap of faith that it might be his will that we be healed. I, like you, respect the reverence and dedication that the Eastern Church does offer us. Sometimes we do see in many RC Churches that offer a "watered-down", make-it-easy-for-us discipline. Of course, we must keep in mind it is not true of all RC Churches. Typically in the Eastern Catholic Church, there is not a rush to just get a service over with. The length of time is not a consideration. Many liturgies may go 2 hrs or so. It seems there may be more of a dedication to worship of God, than just fulfilling our Sunday obligation. I'm not sure if this is even the direction of your post, but I am trying to add my "two cents" of how I read your concern.
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A better neologism might be "suburbanality".
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I wonder how much ethnicity/culture plays a part as well ... My own amateur, layman, armchair historian opinion is that the current western effeminacy is the final decay of Catholic Humanism, with a sprinkle of seepage from cultural Protestantism, and then sped up by the end of the "greater Counter-Reformation era" that happened in the second half of the last century. (I hasten also to make the distinction between "feminine," a good thing, and "effeminacy," which is a decadence of both masculinity and femininity.)
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Catholic writer Leon J. Podles [ podles.org] , in his book The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity [ podles.org] , blames the "New Piety" of St. Bernard of Clairvaux for initiating an approach to Christian piety that both appealed more to women and denigrated masculinity, the end result of which was to drive men away from the Church, creating a vacuum filled by women, who in their turn further feminized the Church. In the introduction of his book, Podles writes, MEN THINK RELIGION, and especially the church, is for women. Why are women “the more devout sex”?1 Modern churches are women’s clubs with a few male officers. Or as Brenda E. Basher puts it, “If American religion were imaginatively conceptualized as a clothing store, two-thirds of its floor space would house garments for women; the manager’s office would be occupied almost exclusively by men.”
Men still run most churches, but in the pews women outnumber men in all countries of Western civilization, in Europe, in the Americas, in Aus- tralia. Nor is the absence of males of recent origin. Cotton Mather puzzled over the absence of men from New England churches, and medieval preachers claimed women practiced their religion far more than men did. But men do not show this same aversion to all churches and religions. The Orthodox seem to have a balance, and Islam and Judaism have a predominantly male membership. Something is creating a barrier between Western Christianity and men, and that something is the subject of this book. . .
A friend of mine stayed for several weeks in an Italian town, and he and his wife attended daily mass. He was the only man in the church apart from the priest, and his presence was so unusual that it attracted the attention of the carabinieri, who investigated to see what hanky-panky was going on. After he crossed the Aegean to Greece, he was startled by the difference in the Orthodox churches. If anything, there were more men than women; the men also led the singing and filled the churches with the deep resonance of their voices. The only time Americans will hear anything like this is if they attend a concert by a touring Russian Orthodox choir. There is no church music for basso profunda written by Americans. . .
Because Christianity is now seen as a part of the sphere of life proper to women rather than to men, it sometimes attracts men whose own masculinity is somewhat doubtful. By this I do not mean homosexuals, although a certain type of homosexual is included. Rather religion is seen as a safe field, a refuge from the challenges of life, and therefore attracts men who are fearful of making the break with the secure world of child- hood dominated by women. These are men who have problems following the path of masculine development, a pattern I will examine in detail later in the book. It is a truism among Catholics that priests become priests be- cause of the influence of their mothers, and many priests are emotionally very close to their mothers, more so than to men, even to their fathers.5 The sentimental sermons on Mother’s Day used to be a great set piece, a five-hanky special, in Catholic churches. Even devotion to Mary was af- fected. Such devotion has a sound theological base, but tended to replace a relationship to Christ or to the Father. The rationale for this was some- times made explicit. At one Dominican seminary in the 1940s, a profes- sor developed a following, which later matured into a small cult. He ex- plained Catholic devotion to Mary in this way: Men have a more distant relationship with their fathers than with their mothers. They therefore have more trouble relating to a masculine God (the Father or Jesus) than to the reflection of maternal love in Mary. Devotion to Mary, on this view, should be stressed more than devotion to Christ. Despite the extraordi- nary theological implications of this line of thought, the professor obvi- ously struck a nerve in his seminarian disciples: they were the sort of men who felt more comfortable with the feminine than with the masculine. The situation holds true in most of the Protestant clergy. Mary was not available, but first sentimentality, and now feminism, have filled the void.
This feminization of the clergy explains the lack of reflection on a subject that the clergy should be interested in: Why does half their potential congregation show an active lack of interest in Christianity, an indifference that sometimes considers male attendance at church suspect? Among Catholics, the few writers that have paid much at- tention to the question are Jesuits. As the early Jesuits were among the most masculine of Catholic religious movements, this is not surpris- ing. Yet the work of Walter Ong and Patrick Arnold has produced no last- ing response. Catholic circles are full of committees and conferences on the place of women in the church, and almost none on the absence of men. . .
Nor has the absence of men left women untouched. As we shall see, women have been forced into an unnatural mold by a misunderstanding among Christians of the feminine. Much of current feminism is an un- derstandable reaction against a caricature of femininity. The breakdown of the proper relationship of masculinity and femininity, male and fe- male, Adam and Eve, is at the root of many of the church’s failures in the modern world. This situation would not surprise the author of Genesis.
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Interesting thread -- although not unique to Catholic dialogue. This same discussion has been occurring in the Protestant churches as well. I cannot speak for any place outside of America, but this issue occurs in secular society as well. Just look at tv and movies... men are portrayed as stupid (the tv women always get their bumbling men out of predicaments)... men are sex-starved drunken fools. I have heard or read that what men need out of "religion" is a purpose. Specifically a purpose with leading and protecting/fighting. I believe the whole idea that we are in a constant cosmic/spiritual battle is very attractive to men. Fr. Larry's book "Be a Man" has some good points in it on this issue -- although there is an equal amount of Latinisms that would offend or seem foreign to eastern ears I imagine.
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I have been sitting on my hands for a day and a half. I have been trying not to feel offended by this thread, but I am offended, lip-service protestations of "valuing true femininity" notwithstanding.
There is some merit in the subsequent discussions of the "suburbanization" of the churches -- the rigors of following the Gospel have been watered down so much as to be unrecognizable -- but the original proposition of West=feminine-->effeminate (and by implication, bad) and East=masculine-->macho (and by implication, good) is both ludicrous and offensive. If I thought for one moment that the Eastern church was "macho" -- I would be out of there so fast your head would spin. In fact, I have never encountered an Eastern priest or deacon whom I would describe as macho, but I have seen a lot of swagger and show among the Western clergy.
Have you forgotten that St. Paul teaches us that in Christ there is no male or female? In fact, being fully human, Christ embodies the fullness of human attributes, both those that we (wrongly) ascribe as masculine and those that we (equally wrongly) ascribe as feminine. If we are to be truly Christ-like, then we, too, must strive for the fullest possible expression of all those attributes.
If you want to find fault with the Western churches and heap praises on the Eastern, please do -- I'll join you (after all, I left the West and journeyed East). But please refrain from doing so with false dichotomies and with language that casts aspersions on half the human race (including those patronizing appreciations of what you think "true femininity" is).
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I went to Stuart's link and found that this book is available free in PDF format.
Bob
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Panthaetria,
Go back and ponder more seriously, putting aside your emotions and your ostensibly hurt feelings. Why not read through what people have written, and avail yourself of the link to Podles book, which, while not the last word on the subject by any means, is a good place to start.
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As I said: Do not be patronizing.
Do not tell me to "put aside my emotions," when I did not post with an outburst of emotion. My feelings were not "ostensibly hurt." My intellect was demonstrably offended.
Do not tell me to go back and ponder more seriously, do not tell me to read through what was written, when I did, in fact, wait and think about what had been written and what I wanted to say. I, in fact, acknowledged the merit of the discussion. But I still find the language used -- naming the problem with the clergy as "feminization" -- an affront on many levels.
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