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Many thin skins reveal many weaknesses in ones position.

The Lord wants Christians to treat each other with charity. All apostolic churches, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Catholic, have plenty of problems within. Their members should concentrate on helping each other and praying for each other. Let us all fast and pray for Christian unity. If we do, perhaps the Lord will grant our prayers while we are still in this world.

This is the one and only warning that I'll post to this thread ... the next time that one even vaguely looks to be necessary, the thread will be locked.

Jim, Ray, and Bob have each made valid, albeit slightly different, points in the posts quoted above. With apologies to them, if what I say hereafter is so far from what they are each thinking that they are offended to have been cited as helping to frame my thoughts, let me elaborate ...

As has been said previously, this forum exists as a place in which the community (that most of us consider ourselves to be) of Eastern Christians and others is afforded opportunities for education about the Faith as it is taught and lived in our respective Churches - sometimes mirroring one another, at other times paralleling, and, at still other times, diverging. Invariably, such opportunities lend themselves to discussion, dialogue, and even debate.

However, the rules of both charity and civility are paramount and adherence to them is more than an expectation - it is a requirement of continued participation here. Examples to the contrary in the governmental arena or other public venues notwithstanding, it is a long since established fact of life that one can express one's preferences, disagreements, etc, without violating the expectations of polite discourse in civil society.

Such expectations are neither pollyanaish, an invitation to gather round and sing kumbayah, nor a demand that postings be 'vanilla'. I soundly reject the comments, occasionally made here and elsewhere, that this forum is one in which no one has an opinion or that it most resembles an agape.

Either would make for a very dull environment, unworthy of the intellects that can be found among its members. None of that, however, precludes or obviates a requirement for basic courtesy.

In simple terms,

you are free to express disenchantment with the liturgical praxis of any of the Churches; you are not free to do so in a way that disrespects the worship of an Apostolic Church, as that disrespects the God to Whom the Worship is directed and disrespects the clergy and faithful of that Church in their worship of Him.

you are free to express your opinions, pro or con, as to the manner and the degree to which a particular Apostolic Church addresses societal issues and/or meets the corporal needs of God's people through its social ministries; you are not free to do so in a way which suggests that its shortcomings in such a regard are evidence of a failed Faith or make it less a true Church.

you are free to express your opinions, pro or con, on the leadership qualities of those whom the Holy Spirit has allowed to be placed in positions of authority over God's people - the clergy and hierarchy; you are not free to express those opinions in a manner that is derisive or disrespectful of their persons or sacred offices (that means more than merely affording them their titles - an insult by titled name is no less an insult).

Finally, it behooves those who would post allegations as to how well or how badly any Church, hierarch, priest, parish, or other canonical entity fulfills its sacred mandates, to educate themselves beforehand as to the matters of which they speak - and - to consider, in comparisons that they might draw between Churches, the relative sizes and resources of each.

There is no valid claim of credibility to be had when one asserts, albeit accurately, the obvious - e.g., that one can apply more paint, faster, to a canvas using a roller than one can using an artist's brush. The better - indeed, perhaps the only valid - analysis asks whether those who wield the two implements each do so effectively.

Many years,

Neil

here's my 2 kopecks:

1) if the Orthodox Churches succeed in the efforts to re-evangelise W. Europe & the rest of the secularised, formerly Christian world, I'd rejoice.

2) as I have said before, the Orthodox Church is not the place for me but anyone who wants to join it is hunky-dory with me. People who do choose it can work to make it a better place (I'd say the same thing to people contemplating switching over to one of the Catholic Churches)...make it a better place...

"People are leaving? When did this start?"

my question is, "when is it gonna STOP?"

at St. Basil's in Irving (TX), lotsa people are coming.

There is finite end point.

Compris. Merci.

My Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish probably averages about 75-95 on Sundays. It should be 2-3x that. I think 4 things impact the most parts of the Catholic Church:

1.) Pastors and the laity don't evangelize for the most part. They don't actively try to build their parishes. It is a great deal of hard work and many wouldn't know where to begin even if they were willing. This could largely be applied to the Latin Rite as well.

2.) The desire to be "more Orthodox" by doing away with things like daily liturgy. To me this is just a matter of being lazy.

3.) Negative attitudes! Be it the "traddie" Latin Rite refugees or those with size envy when it comes to comparing their chosen church to the Latin Rite or those that denigrate the "turquoise books" the constant din of negativeness is poison to a parish!

4.) Many parish don't want to grow. That would mean sharing power. Many pastors and laity cannot even comprehend the notion of two fully-packed DLs every Sunday. Their brains would explode at the thought of another 1-2 DLs every Sunday in Spanish or other common locally-used languages.

Someone once tried to explain to me how a huge mistake was made in not re-locating Saint Mary's (now a proto) Cathedral in Sherman Oaks, CA. Seems like a small handful of young parish families settled in somewhat nearby Santa Clarita and many felt that Saint Mary's should "chase" those new parishioners. Absurd! Crazy!

Saint Mary's is in the middle of about 4.5+ MILLION Catholics! Many of the surrounding Latin Rite Church are jammed to over capacity. If you can't recruit 100-200+ parishioners in that sort of setting the parish is simply not praying and working hard enough.

NB: The folks in Pittsburgh should create a Spanish translation of the turquoise book.

I agree and do join you.

Recently, in the Eastern Pennsylvania Diocese of the Orthodox Church in America, there was a wonderful example of the bishop and his priests serving the needs of the community. http://www.doepa.org/news_110816_2.html

While it may be slow for various Orthodox parishes in this country to engage in such activity, this demonstrates that the seed of the Gospel is beginning to flower. Also, there is nothing from preventing us from volunteering time in our communities. :-)

In gratitude,

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]

A lot of parishes have outreach programs, but since Orthodoxy is mainly for people who don't like organized religion, don't expect much in the way of top-down, diocese-driven programs--though I suspect the OCA under Metropolitan Jonah will become much more outspoken and visible on an institutional level.

Many of the most active parishes, not just in the OCA but also the AOC, have large numbers of converts, and these bring an outward focus, organizational skill and evangelical zeal from their Protestant background. Old-line ethnic parishes still seem to focus on meeting the needs of the ethnic community first ("We look out for our people"), with only residual efforts directed at the larger community at large.

Was it Will Rogers who said, "I belong to no organized political party: I am a Democrat.

"The folks in Pittsburgh should create a Spanish translation of the turquoise book."

No. Ni modo. Ay! - Dios mio. Que locura.

For starters, it couldn't be done. ...

Maybe they outta promulgate instead the Spanish version produced by Archbp. Dmitri of the OCA Diocese of the South.

Hmm. A translation of a paraphrase of the original. Kind of like running something through a few of those on-line translation programs, then back into the original language. Like a box of chocolates--you never know what you're gonna get.

"..it couldn't be done..."? Why not? Sure it could be done.

I think the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics should "promulgate" their existing work translated into Spanish. Rather than turquoise I would favor a deep maroon for the Spanish language version.