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People are leaving? When did this start?

"make progress with the Liturgy" in what way, what direction? What does he mean? Adherence to the RDL?

What I hear from those who have wandered off to Orthodoxy or from some who have the Orthodox are starting new parishes and sending missionaries to areas both within this country and into others. Those who left proclaim that that is one of the main reasons they have left us.

The inscrutable Bishop William! What he lacks in clarity he more than compensates for through ambivalence, ambiguity and tortured syntax.

Wow do I detect some dry wit here? You sure youre from Virginia and not Exeter or Nottingham?

Bishop William has been saying this since he came to New Jersey. I think he considers the RDL as progress. The goal seems to mimic the roman catholic novus ordo.

The priests all talk about how the people have been driven away with all the changes. I know at least one cantor who joined a choir in a Russian Orthodox parish. He can talk of nothing else except how good their liturgy is compared to ours.

From what I have seen of Bishop William as celebrant, I don't give much credence to him as a competent liturgist. His pastoral letters in Eastern Catholic Life are fairly underwhelming, too.

Well if it is an honest Russian church, meaning ROCOR, and not OCA 'Russian' then their Liturgies make even other Orthodox blush. The OCA Russian parishes are very good from what Ive seen but not quite on the level with a ROCOR church.

Its disconcerting when everything the Catholic Church touches has been going to crap from a liturgical POV. It still trumps the hell out of the Orthodox on social/moral orientation issues, but it breaks my heart thinking of its beautiful past and all the fruits of it and comparing it to now and its Spiritual plight.

Wow!!! What arrogance!!! I see you are a Roman Catholic, why don't you tend to your own house which is an unspeakable mess rather than dis the Orthodox who you are not even affiliated with.

The more I see trash like this the more entrenched I become in not wanting to see unity restored. Not with cranks like you running your mouth.

Seraphim

What are you talking about? That was me saying Orthodox Liturgies are better by default than EC liturgies. I said clearly in my post that everything the Catholic Church is touching is seemingly being degraded. Why else would my heart be broken? My point with the ROCOR church is that they are even above the wonderful liturgies of the former Russian OCA liturgies. The ROCOR parishes embarrass everyone. I even heard a Russian immigrant say its like you took the church from Russia (and as he said this he made a motion like he picked something up and set it down in a different spot) and put it here in the states. Thats a HUGE compliment.

The only thing I said the Orthodox are weak on are social works. Meaning taking unified stances on things such as abortion, euthanasia, gay unions, etc... The Catholic Church is the only real force against this stuff and charitable works are the Catholic Church. I really dont think anyone with any intellectual honesty would say the Orthodox even pound for pound come close to the charitable works of the Catholic Church. Now only if us Catholics would remember we are The Church of Jesus Christ first and social works goody-goody second then we might be better off.

I think that was a ridiculous overreaction on your part. I know my church is on a downward spiral. I think youre overly defensive, especially in light of me actually complimenting the Orthodox churches. Your bias immediately assumed I was not.

It seems to me this discussion is somewhat inappropriate in tone and is coming to no meaningful end. I don't think we have a ranking system here to decide who is best on which parameter. Also, this is supposed to be a discussion about Eastern Christianity. As a starting point we do not presume one church is better than another and we should not be making Roman/Eastern assertions since they have no obvious benefit to any discussion here.

This is a great discussion because it indicates the necessity for a Church, both East and West to learn from each other. If something is lacking in the West, it can learn from the East. What is lacking in the East, it can learn from the West. Maybe a bit of humility is needed on our part, and what our Lord actually asks from each of us.

Ray

T

Whatever. You sure as heck sound biased to me and this nonsense of comparing us with the Catholic Church as far as charitable works go is over the top. This is only one link regarding what we do and I can send you plenty more. http://www.antiochian.org/CharityNews What do you mean the ROCOR parishes embarress everyone? No offense to my ROCOR brothers and sisters but they are not the measuring stick used to compare how one Orthodox stacks up against another. Regarding the following items and I quote you here ""The only thing I said the Orthodox are weak on are social works. Meaning taking unified stances on things such as abortion, euthanasia, gay unions, etc... The Catholic Church is the only real force against this stuff and charitable works are the Catholic Church. I really dont think anyone with any intellectual honesty would say the Orthodox even pound for pound come close to the charitable works of the Catholic Church. Now only if us Catholics would remember we are The Church of Jesus Christ first and social works goody-goody second then we might be better off."" Mighty high sounding to me !! From what I hear in my Church<Antiochian>we are not wishy washy about these things at all and I suspect the other jurisdictions aren't either. So yours is the true Church of Jesus Christ, funny we say we are and you are most welcome to come home when you are ready. (-: This forum is supposed to be all about fostering common ground and promoting unity but I have to honestly say I don't see it ever happening when there are people like you spewing trash. Reread your posts a few times, if you still don't get it why I am upset I don't know what to say. Yes, I am blowing my stack right now but I am out of patience.

Seraphim

Christ is in our midst!!

(We seem to forget that os often.) Can we be a bit more charitable? Can we frame our comments in a more diplomatic way? How do you think He reacts when his followers savage each other?

We come here to learn from each other and to encourage each other.. When we find infirmities in our neighbors' corporate bodies, can we be more charitable in pointing them out? Or is it necessary to even point them out? Is it necessary to delve into the wounds of others?

We're all wounded by living in this fallen world and we all need each other. There are plenty of things going on to wound people. That's why I have the ministry to families who have walked away from all communities--and even Christ Himself--because of the way they see and have experienced communities fighting, people fighting, and countless other ways that they find themselves wounded just by being part of a community. Yes, there is plenty of imperfection, but can we be charitable to each other as we work to correct it.

In Christ,

Bob

Hello Bob:

I understand what you are saying here and all of it is true but to be honest with you I am tired of all of the bickering et al . I have come out swinging because keeping ones mouth shut does not in any way make things better on this forum in my view.

In Christ:
Seraphim