www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Thank God For Orthodox Churches

Ohhhhhhhh, you're one of those anti-turquoise bookers. I have heard of you folks. Your sarcasm aside, these really should be a Spanish translation made available. The turquoise book is the obvious source.

No. When you make a translation, you go to the source. So the proper place is, once again, the Slavonic recension. Maybe they'll get it right translating from Slavonic into Spanish, but I doubt it. And the reason you don't simply translate the English "translation" (I hesitate to call it that, for fear of insulting real translators) is the same reason one would not make a Spanish translation of War and Peace using an English translation of War and Peace as your source text. Can't understand that principle, then there is no real point in discussing anything pertaining to translation, liturgical or otherwise.

By the way, I might be the "anti-tourquoise booker", being one of the first to vote with my feet, as well as naming the odious volume the Teal Terror.

"You haven't heard Shakespeare until you've heard it in the original Klingon."

My parents-in-laws' primary language is Spanish, and I wanted to get them a copy of the Diving Liturgy in Spanish. After searching for a while, I ended up finding a ROCOR translation for their South American churches.

I have much more faith in that one, sadly, than one that would be made by my own Ruthenian church's.

Interestingly enough, I have more faith in my Byzantine Ruthenian Church than anything in Orthodoxy. Go figure...

Do you have any idea just how arrogant/insulting your retort is? My goodness. You might be proud to vote with your feet. I tend to use my brain and when it comes to matters of faith, my heart. Good luck to you.

When confronted with error, there one must turn one's back upon it. Also, it isn't arrogance if you know whereof one speaks.

I say that because the current English translation of the Divine Liturgy promulgated by the Ruthenian Church features errors and unnecessary political correctness at best, heresy at worst.

I don't trust them to translate it any better into Spanish. The Spanish version I found from ROCOR is a much more faithful translation than the current RDL of our church, sadly.

So you say...

If I have to choose between your personal opinion (or those of others) and that of the Catholic Church through the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, guess which one I'm gonna pick?

I detest cafeteria catholicism where individuals believe they themselves are are arbiters of what is good and bad, what they should accept and reject. far, far too Protestant in practice for me.

You're digging yourself in even deeper. Is that a product of thinking within one's feet versus one's heart and mind? Make no mistake, accuracy and arrogance can coexist in an individual or an institution and it's often an ugly mix. To even infer that the presence of accuracy eliminates the possible presence of arrogance is ludicrous.

For the record, it was not "thinking" that Stuart claims to have done with his feet. Even if it was, feet are no less proficient at thinking than are hearts. In fact, given the abysmal record of hearts at thinking, I would sooner give feet a chance, if heads cannot be had (which, alas, is increasingly so).

Anyway I propose a compromise. Let Stuart admit to being a jerk, and let Abraham admit that Stuart is a fully correct one. I leave it to the participants to decide if these labels are to be applied generally or only specifically.

Abraham,

If you knew anything about me, you would know that I thought long and hard about the implications of the revised Divine Liturgy and the general direction the Ruthenian Church had decided to take. Since it was apparent that it had turned its back upon the notion of embracing the fullness of the Byzantine Orthodox Tradition, promulgating an abridged, bowdlerized, scholarly deficient and abysmally ugly paraphrase of the Slavonic Recension, and since it was made clear that no comment, dissent or questions would be entertained either by the clergy or the hierarchy, there was nothing else to do except to leave. Having prayerfully discerned the voice of the Holy Spirit, I acted in accordance with my conscience and literally voted with my feet.

I have, thankfully, found a home in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, where my liturgical life has been greatly enriched, and where the ecclesiological vision of an Orthodox Church in communion with the Church of Rome is shared by the clergy and people alike. I do not regret my choice, though I do regret that a Church which which introduced me to the glorious gifts of Eastern Christianity, and where I had made many good friends, continues to languish, not the least because it refuses to restore the liturgical heritage of the people in its fullness, because the liturgy is both the wellspring and the touchstone of theology, the fullest and most perfect expression of our faith, and when it is defaced, the totality of our faith is defaced as well.

When people start using the term "cafeteria Catholic" in reference to people who want nothing more than to worship in the fullness of their Tradition, as directed by the Holy See itself, I think we know where the label "jerk" rightly belongs.

I am glad that you followed your conscience into the Melkite Church. For those of us called to remain in the Ruthenian Church and work to restore our Byzantine Orthodox Tradition working within the Church structure please instead of always bashing us offer some sort of support. And yes prayer works! Good things still happen in the Ruthenian Church.

My parish in San Diego is a good example as are other Western Eparchial parishes. Our parish is growing, the All-Night Vigil has been introduced on a limited basis, compline is prayed during Fasting seasons, matins is prayed on weekdays and on most Sundays, Vespers is every Saturday, Orthodox theologians are studied at our Adult Enrichment classes (we are going to Study St. Nicholas Cabasila's commentary on the divine Liturgy this upcoming Great Fast), we have Monastic Associates of Holy Resurrection Monastery, and have worked with the Orthodox Project Mexico. These are a positive witness to our Orthodox Ruthenian Traditions and yes we use the RDL. We are working with what the Lord has given us.

I have been attending mostly Orthodox services and even though some are better than others, none seem to be abbreviated or compromised as I have unfortunately seen in the ECC. The music in the Ruthenian parishes is very beautiful, but you do have the turquoise monster (we had a green monster in USMC boot camp)and the fastest incensing in the west. Not to mention parishoners that sigh every time they have to bow or make the sign of the Cross (if they even do it...).
I just went to the Ukrainian Cathedral in Parma. No incensing (even when the Bishop was celebrating...)and only part of it was sung. I had been praying a lot being Roman Catholic and all considering Orthodoxy, and getting hints like these makes me think more seriously about going across the street.
The Melkite parish I visited in Brooklyn (Cleveland) Ohio was very Orthodox (sans the pews but most Orthodox parishes have that too)with a great Akathist during lent.
Its sad that even the Liturgics of the Eastern Churches are being compromised by the 'spirit' of VII. Its frightening to be honest.

Thanks for your comments. Are you a member of Holy Angels Parish? They have a truly excellent pastor in Fr. Robert Pipta.