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Joe,

That sounds like a sound business venture. I hope it works. A bit of levity is just what we needed.

Dan Lauffer

JoeS writes:

[It was a compromise. Carpeting this time will only be up the center and side aisles and into the ambo and sanctuary areas. It wont be under the pews as before.]

Since I belong to the same Orthodox parish as JoeS and am also on the church council, I will add my two cents worth.

If it was up to our priest, the pews would go. In fact, he is already talking about eliminiating the first two rows when the floor is done over.
But to eiminate all the pews would cause a major catastrophe in the parish. Our church building is 26 years old. Prior to it's being built we worshipped in a small rented Episcopal chapel for eleven or twelve years. Many people worked very hard and labored long for us to have the beautiful Church and Chapel we have now. And, with the help of God, we payed it all off within 14 years.
Many of those pews were donated by some of our parishioners that were teenagers at the time. Each pew cost from $300 to $600 at the time and these kids worked summer jobs to pay them off. So you can see the emotional reaction there would be if they were suddenly taken out. Especially since some of them were donated in memory of a loved one.
As far as the carpeting, I don't think getting rid of it except for the aisles will be a problem. And yes, it will improve the acoustics a lot.
Since I am the one who vacuums all the rugs in the main church, chapel, vestibule, choir loft, and cry room (yeh we even have a cry room that Fr wants to get rid of) every week I'm am praying for solid floors. Yoy Boshe! Do you know what it's like trying to get an upright vacuum cleaner in each pew s
and undernearth each pew? Takes me 3 to 4 hours every week.

Bob

Oh Lordy - the cry room.

Call me a heretical Protestant, but I am grateful we have a cry room, for two reasons.

One is for the obvious - loudly wailing children. I don't think that the sound of children is sacreligious - far from it - but some kids have such incredible lungpower that they really CAN drown out Father & compete with the cantor. Other kids (and their harried parents!), especially when very young, sometimes need a less stimulating space than the main body of the Temple.

The other reason hits my family hard - neither of my children can tolerate much incense. (Truth be known, I have a problem with it myself - the only way I get through Liturgy is with lots of water.) Yes, incense is wonderful, it's holy Tradition, etc - it's also a tremendous respiratory irritant. We have nice, absorbent carpet, and padded pews - the stuff never fully dissipates. The cry room lets my kids participate in the Liturgy while still being able to breathe.


Pullin' on my asbestos underwear....



Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

"Call me a heretical Protestant, but I am grateful we have a cry room, for two reasons.

One is for the obvious - loudly wailing children. I don't think that the sound of children is sacreligious - far from it - but some kids have such incredible lungpower that they really CAN drown out Father & compete with the cantor. Other kids (and their harried parents!), especially when very young, sometimes need a less stimulating space than the main body of the Temple."

I actually think a small soundproofed crying area with a window is not a bad thing at all -- especially for parents with very young babies and toddlers. Of course, like everything else it can be abused (used as an excuse by parents to let their kids do what they want during the liturgy, or used with children who are old enough to behave), but having a small area available for those with small ones is a good thing for everyone concerned, in my opinion.

Brendan

>>>With all due respect for Dr. John and his struggling Boston Greek Orthodox community, I have visited several Greek Orthodox
communities that did not purchase their facilities from someone else but rather built Greek style, Greek-looking churches from the
ground up, complete with pews. They *built* new churches with pews in them. They would never do that in the Old Country. Why did
they do it here? Because that's what the dominant religious culture in our country -- Protestantism -- has done, and that's what the
Roman Catholics, under the influence of Protestantism, have done.<<<

I think particularly of St. Katherine's on Carlyn Springs Road, built in the round, with custom-made, curved pews that must have cost a very LARGE fortune to manufacture and install. The effect is most disconcerting, the altar is rather cramped and difficult to see from the edges, and the acoustics are awful. On the other hand, when the parish ordered the Church, it was undoubtedly one of the most "hip" ecclesial structures in Northern Virginia, looking very much like the spaceship in which Michael Renny and Gort landed on the Mall in "The Day the Earth Stood Still". But does it look and feel like an Orthodox temple? Not very much. More like a highly decorated version of a Unitarian meeting house.

>>>I actually think a small soundproofed crying area with a window is not a bad thing at all -- especially for parents with very young babies
and toddlers.<<<

Whatever happened to the Cone of Silence from "Get Smart"?

DrJ: Sorry, anastasios, for waxing so eloquent on my forebears, but I get quite manic about it since what they and their counterparts did is my personal connection to Orthodoxy/Greekness and provides guidance on what we should be doing today.

a: No problem. I unfortunately don't have the same connection with my forebearers. Due to several generations of the men in my family on both sides dying at early ages, then my immediate family's move 800 miles away from the nucleas (NW Ohio) family traditions were really not passed on.

DrJ: I truly believe that we need to foster these connections and extol them and learn from them. Without, however, slavishly copying what they did.

a: Sounds reasonable to me. I agree. You tended to sound slightly like you were siding with the slavish side, though, so I objected, but I understand your position now.

DrJ: I'll make you a deal: tell us some of your family's memories, and I promise to wax eloquent about them too. (I take it from the name that you are Greek. What part of the patrida are your folks from? We're Arcadians.)

a: I am Greek "in name only." Actually anastasios is my Christian name. My legal name (also the name I go by in the "real" world is Dustin. I am as German/Dutch as can be (a smidget of Celtic in me to keep things kickin'!) I am an ex-Protestant (explains my fervor a little!). A most interesting joke from God though is my relationship with my friend Mike. He is 100% Greek, but his mother turned Protestant. So the German Greek Catholic debates the Protestant Greek!!! It is funny at times--his dad, who is totally a nonreligious guy otherwise, is always like "MIKE, LISTEN TO THIS GUY---HE KNOWS GREEK STUFF MORE THAN YOU!!" (ie cuz I am Byzantine and Mike isn't! Orthodox=Greek to him!)

I do have to say my one glorification of ancestors would have to be my great grandmother Vera, who was a German immigrant whose husband died at 35, leaving her with a 12 year old boy; she turned down a marriage proposal and worked to ensure her son would never be mistreated. She is probably enjoying heaven with your hardworking ancestors, Dr. John! Eternal Memory!

anastasios

"Orthodox=Greek to him!"

I have a pretty funny anecdote relating to that story, Dustin.

We have a young child and one of the mothers of a child in his playgroup is Greek. Well, one day the playgroup is at our house and she's there, looking around, and can't help but notice our icon corner. The conversation went something like this (B is us, G is our Greek neighbor/friend)--

G: "Icons? You Orthodox?"

B: "Yes"

G: "*Greek* Orthodox?"

B: "No, not Greek Orthodox"

G: "Well, what other kind of Orthodox is there"

B: "We're in the OCA"

G: "The what?"

B: "The OCA, the Orthodox CHurch in America"

G: "What's that?"

B: "It's an Orthodox Church"

G: "But it's not Greek, is it? Doesn't sound Greek..."

B: "No, it's not"

G: "Hmmm", shaking head, "I thought all Orthodox were Greek Orthodox"

B: "No, that's not true, what about the Russians?"

G: "But the Russians aren't really Orthodox like the Greeks are. Are you telling me you're Russian Orthodox?"

B: "No, we're American Orthodox"

G: "There's no such thing. Anyway, why are you hanging icons on the wall like that?"

B: "That's an icon corner"

G: "Never seen anything like that in my life"

B: "Really?" somewhat incredulously, but straining to be polite, "It's an Orthodox custom"

G: "Well, it's not a Greek Orthodox thing, it must be a Russian thing" more head shaking.

The conversation then drifted on to our children, but this was a real howler. Really, I'm not making this stuff up.

Brendan

"I think particularly of St. Katherine's on Carlyn Springs Road"

Or St George in Bethesda -- pews *and* with an elongated nave (but with a nice Greek dome, after all). Or St. Sophia's, even. They all have pews, and none of them were inherited from a previous occupant.

Are there any BC Churches in America which are faithful to our patrimony regarding pews? If not, are there are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches in America that are? I've never worshiped in that kind of setting. I would surely like to.

Dan Lauffer

I'm not sure that seat-less churches do represent 'our patrimony'. (Pews may not be 'traditional', but the use of chairs certainly is.)

When one examines the liturgical hours (i.e., the 'office'), we find 'kathismata', literally, 'sitting stuff'. The psalti would chant these beautiful poetic stanzas while the community sat and listened. Then the deacon (nag, nag, nag!!) would once again appear and sing: "Orthoi!", i.e., 'be upright', i.e., stand up.

The priest's chair was behind the altar, along with chair-lets for the 'lesser clergy', but of course the bishop got his own mother-of-all-chairs out front!!

There are too many clues to consider the idea of 'seatless churches' to be sacrosanct. Especially the fact that our Byzantine liturgical practices oftentimes don't know when to call it quits. (I wonder if first millenial ushers periodically ducked out for coffee and a smoke like our contemporary ones?)

Blessings!

Dear Dan,

I know St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church in Manhattan has no pews. If you are ever in New York City, I'd recommend attending Divine Liturgy there. They fully follow Russian Orthodox traditions and the same calendar. (This is true of all Russian Catholic parishes) The only difference is they are in communion with Rome. If I lived closer, I would go there every Sunday.

In Christ,

Joseph

Are there any BC Churches in America which are faithful to our patrimony regarding pews? If not, are there are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches in America that are? I've never worshiped in that kind of setting. I would surely like to.
Dan Lauffer

>>>Is the only answer to force people to adopt an alien culture? When "standing" is presented as the only real way to worship God hardly
anyone uses the benches put along the side walls. A newcomer will most likely not use them. They will soon figure they are not as
"spiritual" as everyone else because they want to sit down once in awhile. I apologize if I sound a bit shrill on this but it really bugs me
when pewless worship is extolled as the *only* way to worship God. I can count several situations where it was said of a person no
longer attending Liturgy: "They didn't like all the standing" (as if that was some stumbling block akin to being unable to give up a loose
moral life). This may come as a surprise to some people but God can be worshipped from a sitting down position.<<<

Ah, David, I think you overreact. First of all, in the Byzantine Tradition, there have always been benches placed along the side walls of the nave in which people were allowed to sit. However, it was never a proportion of one seat per butt. People were expected to stand, at least for most of the Liturgy (which was much longer then than now). But, if one tired, it was permissable to sit, or even to leave and return. In the Christian East, the believer enters into the Liturgy as into an ongoing encounter with the Kingdom of God. It is not a matter of the aggregation of individual Christians into the corporate worship of the community. Thus, it is most unusual for any Orthodox liturgy to start on time, or for most of the people to be there when the celebrations start. Orthros begins when it begins. Some people are there at the start, others come in the middle, others at the end. Orthros segues into the Divine Liturgy whenever Orthros is over; thus all times are approximate, and it is not unusual for people to be entering right up to the Little Entrance, if not later (though I think we can agree that everyone should be present at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful (The doors! The doors!, and all that). And, with services that sometimes last for six hours or more, it is entirely permissable, even appropriate, for some people to leave, take a breather (literally) and come back in.

Second, you overestimate the effect that this "strangeness" might have on visitors. Today, for instance, I took the 7th and 8th Grade ECF classes from my (pew-ridden) parish to visit the local Melkite establishment, which has chairs but encourages standing ("Chairs are for the elderly, the infirm and the pregnant", according to the priest, who also got my fervent thanks for saying that "kneeling on Sunday denies the Resurrection". Amen and Amen!

Certainly, it was strange for the kids to stand during the liturgy, but it was strange for them to be attending Orthros, and it was strange for them to hear exotic Melkite chants in Arabic, Greek and English, instead of the familiar Prostopinje. And it was strange of them to receive the Holy Mysteries by intinction instead of on the spoon. But it did not alienate them; quite the opposite. The were absolutely enthralled by the fact that they could actually bow. They loved the fact that they could move around, and gather in front of the Royal Doors for the reading of the Gospel (not to mention venerating the Sacred Scriptures after the reading in Orthros). The people of the parish made them feel more than welcome, moving them to the front so that they could be closest to the priest. All this is utterly new to them, having been raised in the "Latin rite of the Byzantine Catholic Church", as somebody once called the Ruthenians. I think a lot of them would be more than happy to see the pews go at Epiphany. In any event, our new temple will not have any.

By the way, I don't know if it was Father's little speech about denying the Resurrection, or my general theory that kneelers encourage kneeling, but a couple of the kids, and one of the adults, who are regular kneelers at my parish, never bent a knee in this pewless Melkite church.

I must say I am enjoying this forum.

Burn em'
Chain Saws!
Yee Haw!

note: I find it interesting that many members of my ultra nationalist ukrainianian church who say "ziss iz Ykrainian Church!" wants the pews. Have they ever been to Ukraine ?

I know St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church in Manhattan has no pews. If you are ever in New York City, I'd recommend attending Divine Liturgy there. They fully follow Russian Orthodox traditions and the same calendar. (This is true of all Russian Catholic parishes) The only difference is they are in communion with Rome. If I lived closer, I would go there every Sunday.

St Michael�s is awesome � I second the recommendation. I�ve been to Saturday Vespers there twice and Sunday Liturgy there once. One correction: for some strange reason I don�t know, they use the Western date for Easter/Pascha. Our Lady of Fatima, the Russian Catholic church in San Francisco, uses the Orthodox paschalion and Gregorian dates for fixed-date feasts, just like the OCA, whose typikon they use. Liturgically St Michael�s looks, sounds and feels just like my own church.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>