www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Divine Liturgy of the Ukrainian Lutheran Church

What do you think of this?

http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/saintsophiaseminary/liturgy.html

What is there to think? Ukrainians who convert to Lutheranism want a Liturgy that is familiar but adopted to Reformation theology. Obviously I don't agree with the theology but I can't criticize them for wanting a Liturgy based on their Liturgical heritage rather than a Western one.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Well, I didn't know how it compares to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

And I wondered if it is like the current Lutheran worship service that is used in Germany or America.

I figured that there might be some converts on the Forum who might know about this or have relatives who are Ukrainian Lutherans and could shed some more light on the subject.

Dr Eric - it's a wee bittie late now for me to do that - compare the versions I mean.

Perhaps you could do it using your own copy and tell us your observations afterwards

I would if I could. But, I don't have a copy.

Nor am I an expert on the Liturgy.

The heretics have always used this trick, they use forms that are familiar so they can lead the others into error in an easier way.

Don't forget that the first reformers like Luther, kept parts of the Roman liturgy intact so that the people could not see the changes. Cranmer also did the same and at the end the Church of England became Protestant.

The "Ukrainian Lutheran" liturgy is just a temporary step. At the end the Protestant worship service will be instaled fully.

So sad.

Is this the "novus ordo" of the Eastern Church?
Do they use byzantine style vestments, incense, icons? Is their chant Byzantine?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

This liturgy uses the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom as a basis, but does a considerable amount of reinterpretation of its material to fit it into an evangelical Lutheran theological understanding.

It is interesting to note that there are characteristics of Lutheran Pietism (the several places for "Prayer"---i.e., extemporary prayer--- interpolated into the framework of the Liturgy; also and most notably, the phrasing of the pastor's prayer after the Confession of Sins. In Lutheran liturgical usage, there are two forms: one is an actual, declarative "absolution" in the traditional Western form; the other is what is called a "declaration of grace," where the pastor doesn't actually say "I absolve you," but rather announces that God has forgiven those who confess. The text given here is the less liturgical text.)

The changes in the Litany of Peace are very reflective of the evangelical Lutheran emphasis on "the Word" in the life of the Church. (What is very interesting is that the Lutherans in the USA and Canada use the Litany of Peace, and made no such changes in the text. Go figure.) Then, of course, there is the change from "Commemorating" the Mother of God and the saints to "Following the example of the Virgin Mary and of all the righteous..."

The interpolation of the Confessional Service of the evangelical Lutheran Church (you can see something very similar in the 1941 "The Lutheran Hymnal" of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod") is, of course, a totally different way of understanding the Divine Liturgy from the Eastern Church.

The Symbol of Faith is modified with text in brackets which conform the Eastern text to the Western form. Interestingly enough, though, the Filioque is not in those brackets, but rather in parentheses. One wonders what the distinction is for.

The Anaphora is very interesting. First of all, that there IS a Eucharistic Prayer is a big modification in classic Lutheran liturgy...the Lutherans in the USA and Canada are split between the people who will NOT use a Eucharistic Prayer as such (LCMS and WELS) and those that will (ELCA, though even there it's not required).

The text of the anaphora is shortened.

The Words of Institution are followed by the Anamnesis immediately joined to a form of Epiclesis---but the invocation of the Holy Spirit is NOT on the gifts, but on the faithful in attendance at the Liturgy. This, too, follows classic Lutheran understanding that the Words of Institution ONLY are the "formula consecrationis."

It would be interesting to know what a Ukrainian Lutheran church looks like. Do they have an icon screen? Do they use incense? Do they chant the liturgy? I wonder how one would find out.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Hmm - I'm no expert either

After my first visit to DL I realised that I really needed a copy so I could follow along - not being a Ukrainian speaker you understand. Since then my collection of copies in 1 form or another [ umm hard copies that is ] is up to about 7 I think.

However try these links- they may be of use
Liturgy number 1 [byzantines.net]

Liturgy number 2 [orthodoxliturgicaltext.com]

Liturgy number 3 [myriobiblos.gr]

Liturgy number 4 [fatheralexander.org]

I suspect that most Prayer Books also have an inbuilt copy

If you want to know about Ukrainian Lutherans, you must go right to the source.

Here are MP3 examples of music used and sung by Ukrainian Lutherans:

http://www.ukrlc.org/mp3/index.htm

Sound familiar?

And here are their liturgical texts in Ukrainian:

http://www.ukrlc.org/liturgija/index.htm

From photos on the site, it seems like their churches are more Western in style, but may include icons, embroideries and other Ukrainian twists. It also looks like some of their pastors use Byzantine style epitrachilia.

Dave

Dear Friends,

I have a few relatives who happen to be "Lutherans of the Ukrainian Rite" .

One "High Church" Lutheran German pastor sent me a copy of their prayerbook that has the above liturgical services and more.

They were formed prior to World War II in Galicia as some sort of "protest" movement against Rome and came from the UGCC! In other words, Lutherans did not "missionize" them.

Yes, there was always a German Lutheran colony in Ukraine (I once met a fellow from there) and this is the source for the Ukrainian word for "Protestant church" which is "Kirkha." (It is also the source for the Ukrainian word for "orange" or "Apelsina" - "Chinese apple" and also for "sandwich" or "butterbrot!")

The liturgy itself follows the Byzantine liturgy closely, being careful to delete references to the Mother of God and the Saints. Even the Filioque is placed in brackets as well!

However, the number of ektenias is reduced (the Protestant protest against "vain repetition" no doubt) and then the Lutheran public confession of sins and reference to the Lord's Supper is brought in that totally destroys the harmony of the Liturgy up to that point.

"I am sorry" is a VERY bad translaton of the Ukrainian Lutheran original - do you think they sent their English texts to anyone in the BCC for review?

They also use icons, three-Bar Crosses (which Evangelical missionaries there have also adopted), Byzantine-style vestments and incense.

In fact, they are following the established precedent in all this made by their historic leaders, like Mikael Agricola of Finland.

He especially believed that since the outward symbols weren't that important, the Lutherans should leave them in place as much as possible so that the people wouldn't "feel" the changes in a drastic way.

This is why when Scandinavian Lutherans came to America, they were also the object of discrimination by the Evangelical American mainstream who looked upon their "Romish style" with suspicion.

(Here in Toronto there is a High Anglican parish whose priest, at one time, suffered abuse and even Salvation Army members would throw dead chickens at his front doorstep!)

There is also a Ukrainian Methodist Church, again comprised of former Orthodox and UGCCers.

Some of my relatives have "tried out" these other denominations - but have ultimately come back to the one true Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church . . .

Two relatives who were Orthodox decided to become EC's after the Pope's visit to Ukraine and are now studying for the UGCC priesthood.

So, in short, my family isn't blessed with any sort of strong backbone, when one comes right down to it . . .

Which is why, I guess, I leave here in a huff whenever I feel offended . . .

It only lasts for a little while though . . .

And I always come back for more . . .

Hope no one minds too much . . .

Alex

The choir is really nice. Too bad they stole the music.

Luniates!

Andrew