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The western church has a strong link to the use of imagination in prayer. An example would be in the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. An example might be, the person praying may picture themselves talking to Jesus about issues in their life or see themselves involved as a participant in the Passion of Christ. Many individuals use it extensively to give them a connected feeling with the Lord.
In the east, the emphasis, but not always seems to be just the opposite, with the use of imagination being discouraged so as to hold no image between the mind and the Lord. The ultimate objective seeming to be to freedom of all thought or to be in "Pure" prayer with God. However many Fathers of the church do not seem to have the same opinion about feelings where a distinction is made between the mind and the heart.
The Eastern path seems to me to be a very advanced form of prayer that might be attainable for those who are spiritually advanced.
I would find it very hard to disengage myself entirely of images during prayer. Perhaps, it is just my history and lack of spritual maturity. I would also feel it could be a hinderance to me not to go deeper into a prayer state.
I'm not really offering criticism of either way. I think they may ultimatley lead to the same end. I would be interested in hering insight from others and what path they use and which way they most benefit from. What hinderances or problems do you feel you might have by using the opposite method (I use the word method,only for lack of a better term)?
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Actually, I don't have much to add to this. I just hated to see a goose egg in the response column. Possibly my question is just confusing or simply solicits little interest. I'll try and be more direct and shorter with comments in the future.
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Who on earth might be amongst the "spiritually advanced"?
If there are any such folks, they themselves are unaware of it and would probably sincerely refer to themselves as miserable sinners in serious need of God's mercy.
Last edited by sielos ilgesys; 09/05/11 07:35 AM.
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If they are at that level I don't think they would refer to themselves in a lofty manner, but their qualities might be recognized by others.
The crux of my question, is to separate the use of imagination for me in a prayer life seems remotely unattainable and not sure how one would even separate such visual concept. It would seem the use of icons or statues in our chruches encourages us to use visual imagery rather than discourages it.
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Raised as a life long Eastern Rite Catholic I do not ever recall a nix of imagination in prayer as an explicitly stated dictum. In the years following an express effort to "de-latinize" our traditions, which have included efforts in re-assessment and change of the physical decor and so called "latinized" ritual and Liturgy. I have beard nowt on this. Well, actually in an unrelated conversation with my priest he did once allude to something like this, but I don't recall his mention of it carrying any specific and emphatic instruction on the matter. And please know, my priest has been very instrumental in reshaping our Church to reflect a consonance with Eastern Rite tradition, so much so that I would say it significantly is at variance with the Eastern Rite Church I grew up with. Definitive? Nope, but I can go to three different ER Churches and they will all be different enough in approach (and length), but that's a separate topic for another time.
Is this disapprobation of imagination peculiar to the Orthodox Church?
In the case of my spiritual development I do take issue with such a position. I cannot "feel" love or forgiveness without the reflexive aid of visual referent. Sorry, that's how I'm wired. How do you define, let alone quantify a polluting factor of imagination in prayer? In avoiding imagination in prayer - and I'd really appreciate a clarification of what this means and how one discerns this as occurring - how do you distinguish between meaningful prayer and just rattling off a bunch of words?
I give you that being immersed in a type of religious imagery/ecstacy in prayer that puts personalized words in the mouths of the Divine can be a very slippery slope, but based on experience, I can also say obsessive repetition of the Jesus Prayer can urge on impressions of Divne support and solution that may also be of suspect origin.
I don't want to be cypher rattling off a prayer that I am not paying attention to. I value a personal feeling of connection with the Divine when I pray. If this is the result of "latinization,' well, personally, thank God for 'latinzation." I don't know if I would have found my way back to the Church had it not been for images, feelings, and a estimation that Someone was watching over me. That part of imagination in prayer I do trust.
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I would advise against changing your prayer life based on a few excerpts; as is any selected quote, it can be very misleading. We should understand Eastern spirituality, but shouldn't dwell on "differences between Eastern and Western prayer." Isn't all prayer "conversation with God"? The stereotyped Protestant-related Bible-reading prayer is also an efficacous form of prayer. Who on earth might be amongst the "spiritually advanced"?
If there are any such folks, they themselves are unaware of it and would probably sincerely refer to themselves as miserable sinners in serious need of God's mercy. I very much agree with Sielos's comment; to achieve this level of conversation with the Holy Spirit is truly a Gift to be thankful for.
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I think it important to understand prayer and avoid unhealthy methods. This includes the avoiding of imagery which has brought some to delusion. The Fathers of the Church are clear on this. Quoting the linked article above: Saint Macarius of Egypt (A.D. 300-391), for example, writes that Satan appears to those seeking visions as an angel of light to foster in them a proud opinion of themselves as visionaries of the divine, and by this self-pride to lead them to destruction (see 630). Saint Nilus of Sinai (died c. 430) a disciple of Saint John Chrysostom, teaches that the mind must be “deaf and dumb during prayer” (Philokalia 2:208). “When you pray,” he writes, “do not imagine God in any form and do not allow your mind to form any image…” (2:215) St. Nilus also warns to not even desire to see any images or visions: “Do not desire to see any face or image during prayer. Do not desire to see Angels, or Powers, or Christ, in order not to become insane, having accepted a wolf for the shepherd and having worshipped the enemies—demons” (2:221).
Likewise, another one of the Eastern Fathers, Saint John Climacus (A.D. 525-606) asserts that at least some visions and revelations may be created by the demon of pride who uses them to plant and nurture self-pride in devotees: When the demon of pride becomes established in his servants, then, appearing to them in a dream or in a vision in an image of an angel of light or a martyr, gives to them revelations of mysteries, and as if a gift of [spiritual] gifts, in order that these unfortunate ones, having succumbed to the temptation, completely lost their mind. (191)
A Sinai Father, Saint Gregory (c. 1260-1346) shows an unbroken continuity of the patristic tradition of prayer and continues to caution against mental imagery during prayer:[N]ever accept if you see anything physical or spiritual, inside yourself or out, even if it is an image of Christ, or an Angel, or some Saint, or a light appears to you and shows in your mind. The mind itself has a natural power of imagination and can easily create a phantom image of a thing, which it desires… In the same way, a recollection of good or bad things usually shows
their images in the mind and leads the mind to imagination… (Philokalia 5:224)
In another place, St. Gregory repeats the same warning even more sternly: When doing your task [of prayer], you see light or fire outside [yourself] or in, or a face—of Christ, for example, or an Angel, or someone else’s—do not accept it, in order not to suffer damage. And yourself do not make images; and those that come on their own—do not accept them, and do not allow your mind to keep them. (Philokalia 5:233) It becomes clear, therefore, why the Eastern Tradition warns so sternly against accepting any images whatsoever, even those seemingly coming from God. Instead, an emphasis is placed on
humility and repentance, which are seen as the foundation and the goal of prayer. Saint Ignatii Bryanchaninov), summarizing this emphasis for novices, wrote: Concerning voices and apparitions, one must have an even greater caution: here, the demons’ deceit is closer and more dangerous… This is why the holy fathers taught those beginning prayer not to trust voices and apparitions—but to reject them and not accept them, leaving this to the judgment and the will of God, but for themselves considering humility more useful than any voice
or apparition. (Works 2004, 5:306)
Last edited by Mike L.; 09/05/11 12:09 PM.
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I am familiar with these urgings from the Philokalia. I find the instruction helpful insofar as certain personalized "visions" are concerned and also as a check against
satan's hand at fomenting pride at one's piety w/ pretty thoughts of being in a privileged and 'holier than thou" state. But what I have a hard time wrapping my head around is some sort of blank state of prayer that isn't in some way informed by memories/ images of forgiveness, love of neighbour, and some kind of human sympathetic-accessible image of the Divine. That said.
I accept the legitimacy of the visions accepted by the Catholic Church.
And dig it: I believe in the Rosary, too. Gotta use images in saying the Rosary.
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One reason we pray before icons is to avoid flights of the imagination. Icons root us in the reality of Him to whom we pray.
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I But what I have a hard time wrapping my head around is some sort of blank state of prayer that isn't in some way informed by memories/ images of forgiveness, love of neighbour, and some kind of human sympathetic-accessible image of the Divine. That said.
I accept the legitimacy of the visions accepted by the Catholic Church.
And dig it: I believe in the Rosary, too. Gotta use images in saying the Rosary. Also, from what I've read it's not necessarily a "blank" state of mind, but images can tend to be replaced instead with feelings, which causes the heart to become engaged more so than the mind. St. Theophan the Recluse has written a lot about this and says that praying without images comes from praying with the heart instead of the head. He talks about paying more attention to the meaning of the words being prayed and forcing oneself to feel deeply that they are coming from one's own heart. He says that when the main focus is a broken and contrite heart, then imagery and imagination will tend to quiet down and not to be as involved. There's a lot of good stuff about this in the book "the Art of Prayer". But also in the book "Unseen Warfare", he says it's perfectly acceptable to reflect on the various events of Christ's life on earth as written in the Gospels, I would assume as one might do with the Rosary. The main prohibition I've read about is not to form a habit of imagining the glories of heaven, the choirs of angels, etc which would be impossible for man's mind to grasp. St. Simeon the New Theologian elaborates on that problem in his discourse on the three forms of prayer in the Philokalia (on Prayer of the Heart).
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Very helpful clarification, thanks! I have found that in reading about the sort of mindfulness in prayer you've described, and in perhaps some of the same sources you've alluded to, the archaic translations can be a bit opaque in coming to appreciate nuanced meaning. Again, thank you for shedding some light on the process. It does make me still wonder about this issue with imagery in Eastern Rite prayer, however. Aside from flights of imagination that are preoccupied with the cosmology of Heaven, tender one's sense of one's own rarefied piety, or jerk one away from attentiveness with mundane/carnal concerns - all perilous issues in prayer life from a Western perspective, I'd wager - what else is there in Western imagery that may feel so wrong in an Eastern perspective?
Stuart, interestingly, I seem to recall being told one should properly close their eyes when praying before an Icon. Again, maybe yes for some of us, no for others.
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Good comments from many. Slow start, just no one wants to start first I guess. I was beginning to feel like the comedian who asks "is this mike on?"
Appears many have read the same things I have. Imagination in prayer has been a major part of my prayer life and I am sure it has with others. It is difficult to ascertain sometimes the significances of differences of east and west and their level of importance. Many are important, many as just "differences", and sometimes its difficult to tell where those issues fall.
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It is difficult to ascertain sometimes the significances of differences of east and west and their level of importance. Many are important, many as just "differences", and sometimes its difficult to tell where those issues fall. Yes, as a Roman Catholic, since my prayer life and reading have become so heavily Easternized over the past couple of years, it can feel somewhat schizophrenic at times! But really both the Eastern and Western ways of praying seem very complimentary to me. I guess the important thing is that we just keep praying! 
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Very helpful clarification, thanks! I have found that in reading about the sort of mindfulness in prayer you've described, and in perhaps some of the same sources you've alluded to, the archaic translations can be a bit opaque in coming to appreciate nuanced meaning. Again, thank you for shedding some light on the process. It does make me still wonder about this issue with imagery in Eastern Rite prayer, however. Aside from flights of imagination that are preoccupied with the cosmology of Heaven, tender one's sense of one's own rarefied piety, or jerk one away from attentiveness with mundane/carnal concerns - all perilous issues in prayer life from a Western perspective, I'd wager - what else is there in Western imagery that may feel so wrong in an Eastern perspective?
Stuart, interestingly, I seem to recall being told one should properly close their eyes when praying before an Icon. Again, maybe yes for some of us, no for others. No problem The one Western tendency I've heard is not compatible with the East is the more feminine spirituality of being "betrothed". I could be wrong though. There are some more traditional orders of Roman Catholic nuns who still hold the tradition of wearing a wedding dress on their day of profession. I think some of the masculine/feminine spiritual influences between East and West were discussed in a thread a while back.
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