www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall "Greek Catholic" or "Byzantine Catholic"

Please correct me if I am in error, but my father explained to me that the Ruthenian Greek Catholics in America began using the term Byzantine Catholic to describe themselves in the 1950's after Court decisions in the appellate courts of several states ruled that the term 'Greek Catholic' per se was not akin to a 'trademark' and that the Greek Catholic churches united with Rome did not posses the exclusive right to use the term. (In other words, the fact that a church may have been initially chartered as a "Greek Catholic Church" was not presumptive proof that the parish was in fact united with Rome. St. John's Greek Catholic Church, Perth Amboy, NJ, St. Michael's Greek Catholic Church, Binghamton, NY and St. John's Greek Catholic Church, Ambridge, PA come to mind as examples. These all were litigated and all ended up in ACROD.)

Unlike our Ukrainian cousins, the Ruthenians/Rusyns/Carpatho-Russians/Rusins/Carpatho-Rusyns/Rusnaks etc... had no consensus within their ethnic community as to what they should be called, hence, the term Byzantine was applied to distinguish them from the Ukrainian Greek Catholics.

Upon reading this post I did me a little search for possible meanings of the word "byzantine". I discovered that among it's religiously correct definitions are a few which are a bit unsavoury, like: "of, relating to or characterized by intrigue; scheming or devious...highly complicated, intricate and involved."

To what extent (if any) do these additional definitions accurately describe us?

I just tell people I'm a Greek Catholic and if they got questions, they're welcome to fire away. Here in the Lone Star State knowing people's religious affiliation can be socially important. Hardly anyone here knows what an Eastern Catholic of any kind is anyway.

I've tried to say I am not interested in what any parish calls itself nor what they chooe to put on signs etc. That is not what I'm talking about.

Bless, Father,

Thanks - I missed the misnomer.

Many years,

Neil

My use of AP was, as LC and Nelson deduced, to the Annuario Pontificio - not to the Associated Press stylebook that Tim suggested.

Mary Louise,

You're unlikely to find any definitive reference to the Russian Greek-Catholic Church or Russian Byzantine Catholic Church in the AP, since - although it is a sui iuris Church, it has no hierarchy, its parishes are subject to the Latin ordinaries of the place in which each is situated, and, therefore, no statistics are presented as regards it as an ecclesial entity.

I don't know - and, in fact, doubt, - that it has ever been accorded a formal name.

You reference Father Robson's use of Russian Greek-Catholic in the title of a piece at St Andrew's site. Actually, only the text comes from Father Ronald's writing - the title was added to it at the site. In the original [cnewa.us], he uses only the single word "Russians".

You also note the titles of the various other parishes, present and of blessed memory, linking to the directory entries for each.

Keep in mind that the nomenclature used on the directory entries generally reflects the name of each, as I transposed it from the parish website. Whatever is in parentheticals generally represents an addition by me, for purposes of either clarity or consistency across entries for the user.

Thus, ... Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine (Russian Greek-Catholic) Church - because, with "Byzantine" as a stand-alone, it might be mistaken as Ruthenian

As Father Roman notes, St Michael's, historically, has been 'St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel'. In countries where there are both an Eastern Church and Latin jurisdictions/parishes, we have long tended to tag our Churches in a way that differentiates them.

Thus, we speak of Ukrainian Greek-Catholics to distinguish them from Ukrainian Catholics (of the Latin Church). Although I know that there are no ethnic Russian Latin parishes outside the Russian Federation, that process is so ingrained in my thinking, that I automatically prefixed 'Greek' to the 'Catholic' in St Michael's titling. (It certainly was shorter than the usage which was present on St Michael's site for many years; if I remember correctly, that read 'St Michael's Russian Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome'.)

That same reasoning is how 'Greek' came to be prefixed to 'Catholic' in the titling of Our Lady of Kazan in Boston and Presentation of the Virgin in Youville.

As to Ss C&M in Denver, I suspect 'G-C' got added from force of habit.

Your Church has no single formal name because of the historical absence of a unified hierarchical structure. In the time of Blessed Leonid, his exarchate would have been denominated as the 'Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow for Faithful of the Oriental Rites (Russian)'; that of Harbin, likewise.

Many years,

Neil

sielos,

To answer that question, I'll merely point out that I have, on several occasions, in the course of threads as convoluted as this one, been known to post the comment "they don't call us 'byzantine' for nothing"

Many years,

Neil

Neil-
Thank you. You are affirming what I've suspected.

This has been an interesting foray. One often hears Catholics speak so definitively about things which in fact aren't definitive. But when it comes to something that seems like a rather "concrete" topic, the name of a Church sui iuris, that does seem like a place where one might expect to know an answer.

And I have heard some speak rather definitively about the name of my Church sui iuris, which name in fact seemed to have morphed, which perplexed me since, having had no hierarchy I could think of no way for us to have an official change of name, if indeed there had ever been an official name, which I've not been able to track down in the first place.

I remember in the past when I'd read some of our history of which there are some articles linked on our parish website feeling like I was not bright enough to figure out what the end point was when various descriptions of the Church were used.

There is actually a rather sweet result then, that we remain Russian Orthodox who came into communion with Rome, nothing "more" in terms of a new name. I know at 20th and Lake we strive to be faithful in our Orthodox faith, in communion with Rome, grateful to the founders of our holy temple for the rich legacy they handed on to us. May the Mother of God to whom our temple is dedicated, continue her protection of our tiny expression of the Body of Christ in this world.

Thanks to all for your input. Please keep us in your prayers.

This is not a term I have ever heard before, but I instinctively like it. I think I will start using it regularly.

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

We Maronites are in a unique position. We do not have to use Catholic within our name. Our official name is The Maronite Syriac Church of Antioch. In Syriac it is ʿīṯo suryaiṯo māronaiṯo d'anṭiokia;. We are Oriental Catholics as oppose to being Byzantine or Greek Catholic.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

It seems that this term "Byzantine" is only used in the US, everyplace else its Greek Catholic in whatever language. To be honest, most average Americans when they hear the term "Byzantine" have not a clue what it means unless they have more than the average knowledge of world history.

Luke,

Pretty much the case. Outside the US, only one Church comes to mind as using it. The Slovaks - on the English language page of their website [grkat.nfo.sk] - proclaim themselves as the Byzantine Catholic Church in Slovakia. However, the subtitle reads "Greckokatolicka cirkev na Slovensku" - Greek-Catholic Church in Slovakia.

Many years,

Neil

As an aside: Latin Rite Catholics in Greece will refer to themselves as Greek Catholics also. Here's one page for a Catholic youth group from Greece:

Greek Catholics Website in Greece (Latin Rite) [greekcatholics.gr]

And their You Tube channel:

Greek [Latin Rite] Catholic Youth Group (Greece) [youtube.com]

As Dave's remarks point out, and as I should have noted in my reply to Luke, 'Greek Catholic' is an integral part of their Church's name for Greek Catholics of the Byzantine Rite. Thus, Byzantine is typically prefixed to the name of that Church, to distinguish it from the Latin Rite Greek Catholic Church.

Many years,

Neil

The OCA used to be called the "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic" church and to the day some churchs, like in Seattle, have signs saying ROGC church. We always assumed that it was used when the large numbers of Greek Catholics from Europe joined the ROGC Church in the early days, some were still identifying themselves as Greek Catholics probably. Now its the OCA.