www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Praying to Saints

My observation is that it seems that Catholics in the West pray more to the saints than EC's or EO's. Thoughts?
Note: I'm not disputing whether it's a pious practice or anything like that.

Firstly, a small correction. In neither tradition, east,west, Catholic or Orthodox, are the saints prayed to. We petition them to pray for us. I must disagree with your observation having lived in both traditions. No service in Latin Christianity could match the beauty and splendor of the Vesper service I attended last evening at our local Greek Orthodox church to honor their patron, St Demetrios. I was transfixed, and thought myself in heaven surrounded by saints, whose icons fill the walls and vaults of this beautiful New England church, as Hieromonk, Fr Maximos from Mt Athos chanted throughout. I'm afraid Ordinary Time has become a little too ordinary in the Latin west.

But Latin Catholics do say they "pray to". Even if they don't really do it.
Specifically I was more interested in private prayer life than public liturgical worship.

I find it odd to hear someone say "all we can do now is pray to Mary". I personally believe that many Latin Catholics mistakenly pray to saints.

Further i've read this from a Latin Catholic:
" The interncession of Mary is an order of magnitude more efficacious than the intercession of all saints combined (hence the term hyperdulia).

Mary's role in our salvation, title as Mediatrix of All Grace, etc."

So if Mary is an order of magnitude greater than why pray to other saints at all? And for that matter Jesus is infinitely greater than Mary so .... you get the picture.

Petitioning saints to pray for us to God is IMO most certainly a form of prayer to them. A distinction has to be made between worship of saints (we don't do that) and invoking/venerating them.

Seems to me that most kinds of Protestantism has big problems with this but sometimes I've been able to point out to them that you ask your pastor and members of your congregation/community to pray for you or someone else - and that makes sense to them. Well we ask our friends here on earth (whom we see) as well as our friends in heaven (whom we don't see) to pray for and with us.

And so we end up talking about what good it does to pray to dead people; and then we get into a discussion about what happens to people after death: do they just lapse into nothingness or do they continue living in some fashion?

And I do think we give a particular special kind of higher veneration to the Most Holy Mother of God. At least I do, as I was so taught...

It's the distinctions between "latria", "hyperdulia" and "dulia". Just because the formulations of these distinctions arose in Latin Christianity doesn't make them useless to us.

Mary and the saints (incl. the good angels) are important only because of their relation to Jesus. In Catholicism & I believe also in Orthodoxy, sooner or later it all boils down to it being about Jesus.

Now when it doesn't, well, that's when we get into trouble.

Pray is a validly used with regards to the saints. One of lesser used meanings of pray is to petition or request. We don't use pray much like this in contemporary English, except when it comes to saints, but it you read older literature it is used quite frequently.

Example:

I pray thee, good Mercutio, let’s retire:
The day is hot, the Capulets abroad,
And, if we meet, we shall not scape a brawl;
For now, these hot days, is the mad blood stirring.

(Shakespeare, Act 1, Scene 3, Romeo & Juliet, the character Benvolio speaking to Mercutio)

Justin

Thank you everyone for these replies. I guess the "proof is in the pudding" so to speak as there many earthly saints that "talk" regularly with those heavenly ones.

Not really.

"I pray thee" is much different than "I pray to thee".

And, careful reading will show that Justin made that precise point.

Many years,

Neil

No, he didn't.

The word "pray" changes when it has "to" after it. "Pray thee" and "pray to thee" have different meanings, and it is the "to" that determines which is being used.

He conflated these meanings when he said that one validates the other, which it does not.

"I pray thee, St. Gregory" is different than "I pray to thee, St. Gregory".

He said that their meanings are the same, and they are not.

There are differences in usage.

The sad fact is that indeed many are praying *to* saints in their ignorance, while they should be asking saints to pray for them.

As for the Protestants . . . Would you ask your mother to pray for you? And would she stop doing so at her death? Isn't it natural tow ask her to continue?

I see the need to escape as much as possible the honor, prayer, praise etc offered to saints as a result of protestant influence.

Once I read one writing that we pray in the presence of an icon rather than pray to the icon.

The fathers were clear on that. They made a distinction between latreia offered only to God and proskinisis offered to saints, icons and holy things.

I honor the image of Christ in an icon and that honor goes to the prototype whom I adore. Because the image and prototype are the same and one, the same and one is also my act of veneration and adoration.

This works analogous with prayer to the saints!

Its splitting hairs to make such distinctions..."I Pray Thee" or I ask ...."I Pray Thee St Nectarios to Pray for me." We Pray to the Saints because in praying to the Saints we acknowledge that they are Resurrected from Death by Christ and are truly living . The nature of the prayer however is another question..The Prayer to the Saint denotes something about that saint. Who they are , their earthly life before going to Heaven, and what they do now for those who ask them in prayer. Some saints heal illnesses or some are helpful against certain sins of the flesh. Its a Prayer within a Prayer. I pray (ask) St Demetrios to pray for me to God , because St Demetrios can approach God in a way I can not directly, because St Demetrios has attained to the Glory of God which I am struggling on earth for . In which I attain by St Demetrios Prayer (God Willing).

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2679: ”Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.”

I am reluctant to offer an opinion whether Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics pray to the Saints but I can say with great certitude that the Orthodox pray to Saints, enthusiastically. A brief look at any of our prayer books will confirm that.

Unfortunately,I am sure both Catholic and Orthodox alike have many within their ranks that do not have a very good understanding of many aspects of their faith. The use of the phrase, "Praying to Saints" as opposed to "asking for intercession" is something that is often expressed in error. The same could be said that many Catholics would unfortunately agree with the comment that they worship Mary, not understanding the breadth of that statement and that this is not in agreement with the teachings of the Church. The proper term would of course be "veneration" as opposed to "worship". Misuse of termminology may support suspicions of those outside the faith to affirm their existing perceptions of the Church.

Yes, you are right JW...Catholics and Orthodox alike need to be taught the proper terminology. There is alot of teaching of the word 'venerate' in the Orthodox church. I hope that the Catholics can educate their faithful about the proper use of this word too.

As others have said here, we do pray TO the saints and TO the Theotokos, but in all spiritual knowledge that they are granting our prayers THROUGH God, and that they interceding for us like a good Christian friend on earth would. The saints are our friends in Heaven!

Alice