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What is the Eastern teaching on children in church. The issue is that I have a toddler who's just being a toddler. Tends to be vocal and loves to roam around. The other issue is that he doesn't want to be soothe by anyone else except my wife. My wife is tired and stressed during Divine Liturgy. She's thinking of just stopping having our child in Divine Liturgy, go to 5pm Mass and I attend Divine Liturgy in the morning. I want my child to be grow up going to church but at the same time I don't want my wife to feel overly burdened by the situation.

Advices? Comments?

Constantine, my brother,

Of course he wants only to be soothed by Mommy, that's what toddlers are all about (except for those little princesses who choose only to be soothed by Daddies). You don't say how old he is, but I'm guessing in the 2 to 2.5 range - the high point of toddlerdom

Although I'm sure there will be those who disagree (There's a deacon's wife in a Melkite parish that shall go unnamed who has occasionally written in the eparchial magazine on her - what I consider rigid - ideas about child-rearing and the control of children in church - she makes my teeth ache) I'm a personal fan of allowing toddlers to be themselves during Divine Liturgy - albeit I'm not in favor of baggies of cheerios, toys, etc, in the pews.

I do acknowledge that it is possible for them to become so distracting to the congregation that it really is necessary to take them outside briefly or to a 'crying room' if there is such. If Mom is really stressed by the behavior, what she's suggesting may be the solution for a 6 month period or so, to give him a bit more time to grow into the more mature ranks of advanced toddlerhood - at which time there might still be occasion to roam, but random vocalization might decrease.

As his language skills develop, you can always try teaching some chant on a rote basis. I doubt that he'll sound worse than the tone deaf members of the congregation, and if you have none of those, your parish is miles ahead of the rest of the universe.

Even with age, children have their moments in church. About 2 years ago, my two youngest and I got off schedule and missed the English Liturgy, so found ourselves at the Arabic one at a parish other than our own. My youngest daughter, about 7 at the time, had (still has) a rep among her sibs as the 'perfect child'.

Ordinarily, she diligently follows the Liturgy, visually and in the booklet, but was thrown by the language factor. As she explained later, everything seemed longer because she couldn't relate it to the text. At one point, after we had been standing for quite a while, the deacon motioned the congregation to be seated. As we did, and at a moment of complete silence in the church, Caelin leaned into the aisle and said loudly and distinctly (in a temple with wonderful acoustics) 'Thank you'. Her older brother, himself no stranger to causing disruption, stared; the old aunties immediately in front of us nearly choked while stifling themselves; and, I have to admit being unsure what to do or say, as quiet titters could be heard here and there.

She sensed that this might have been a faux pas, turned to me and, in a stage whisper, said 'well, it was nice of him, my legs were kind of tired'. (I thought the aunties were going to need medical attention at that point; Caelin, however, leaned over to the one the one most afflicted by the cough covering her laughter, patted her on the back, and asked 'are you ok?). My advice, you live with it and enjoy who they are at the moment.

Many years,

Neil

Addendum: Oh, you asked about the Eastern teaching - not the indulgent Dad view. Hmm, as I recollect, the Great Priest's words were 'suffer the little children to come unto Me!' - that works for me. He didn't add, 'but only when they mature enough to mind their p's and q's'

Those who consider Mass or the Divine Liturgy as "face time for me 'n' Jesus" have it wrong. Liturgical worship is praise offered by the entire Church, and, because they have been fully illuminated, through baptism, chrismation and the Eucharist, our children, no matter how young, are also full members of the Church who have a right to be there and participate according to their level of development. They certainly ought to be presented for communion, for the Eucharist is the food of immortality, which effects our transformation into the image and likeness of God.

Father Joseph at my parish likes to say "If the little ones become obstreperous, take them outside and calm them down, then bring them back, because the Liturgy is for them, too".

To people who complain about too many little kids at Liturgy, I always say, "Consider the alternative".

There seems to be this idea that the Divine Liturgy is an alternative to the Roman mass when the kids are in CCD. As Fr. Ramon has said, when that is the attitude, the children are already lost to the East. There is no doubt in my mind that Divine Liturgy, no matter what the variety, is an acquired taste. If you never taste it then acquiring it is pretty difficult.

As an aside, we attend a very large (3000+ mass attendees on the weekend) Roman church that is only a few years old. The priest refused to build a cry room in the church. His policy is kids belong in mass.

He's 20 months old by this weekend

Presbytera Catherine, blessed with 9 beautiful children, offers the reflections below. If you are ever in the area, please visit their beautiful new temple! See http://saintandrew.net/
Children in Church
Reflections on Helping Children in the Divine Services
by Presbytera Catherine
We have been worshiping in our new beautiful temple for around three months now and I have a few suggestions of how we can improve our situations as we worship together in the beauty of God's holiness. It is truly a great joy to be children of God and to belong to the family of believers on earth. There are too many joys to count that come from our family in Jesus Christ. However, in that family we also have struggles and wrinkles that need to be ironed out. Hopefully these struggles can prove the greatness of our love for one another and for our Lord Jesus. I have noticed , as many of you have, that the noise level is much, much louder in our new temple. Hence, when one of my little ones is extra playful or just having a tough time, their little noises and cries are echoed around the entire church. This is sometimes so unpredictable and sudden that there is nothing that can be done for that split second. However, each of us parents and older siblings who are caring for the little ones, need to be aware of those around us, the elderly who strain in order to hear every word), the visitors (who may not yet understand what is taking place in the service) and those without young ones (who certainly don’t have the patience or understanding that we do of our children). If that unexpected cry is one that will continue for more than 2-3 seconds, the child needs to be quickly taken outside until he/she calms down and is ready to re-enter the sanctuary. They are smarter than we give them credit for and are able to learn that the sanctuary is a place of prayer and quiet. I remember many years ago when I had only Chad, Aidan and Victoria in church and I was feeling so overwhelmed and sad that I had to spend much of the service outside. I was speaking with my spiritual father about how I felt and he said something that forever changed my perspective of worship and my children...no matter what their little demeanor was. He said, “When we come to the Church for worship, we are coming to commune with the Living God. This is our whole purpose and our hearts desire to meet him. When you have to leave the Divine Service because your little ones need you, need to be changed, are fussing over a tooth coming in, or a stomach ache or ten other reasons….then remember that in taking care of them with love, it is there that you will find your communion with God.” This really changed me that day because I was often feeling “out” wanting to be “in”...yet it was then that I recognized that for this reason of my life, being “out” might be exactly where I will be “in” …communion, that is, with my Maker. So don’t hesitate, feeling discouraged if you have to scurry out with a little one making noise, it is just for a season and many others who are there to worship have already “been there and done that” and are wanting to enter a different place of peace.

In regards to the summer heat, I have asked that we could open the upstairs in the hall and turn on the air conditioning for a place to take the children that is cool and comfortable, while their needs are being cared for. I would also like to implore our seasoned mothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, and godparents to have patience and look at the young mothers as your own daughters, the young fathers as your sons and their children as your own grandchildren. They are family after all...and these are the ways that we struggle with our family. Please try to express your feelings in love to them if you are having trouble hearing or concentrating and if you are able why not ask if you can take one of the babies for a walk outside to give the parent a break. To send an evil eye or a scowl, even if mothers are being insensitive or unhelpful, doesn’t accomplish the desired end. Loving correction is to be preferred. It would be welcomed from a heart of love I am sure! I would like to interject here a comment to parents to not take a word from one of our elders or ushers as an insult, but rather as a word from one who is trying to help the whole community work together and let us remember the words of the apostle Paul to Titus:

"Let the older women teach the younger women to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands so that the word of God may not be dishonored." Titus 2:4-5

So if we could endeavor to let love and mercy be the guiding principle both for those with young and those without young, we will go a long way! If there is any need to discuss this please feel free to approach me I would be happy to help in any way I am able...even brainstorm with you. My prayer is for our mutual love, respect and peace as we work to build our family...the body of Christ...an expression of His Heavenly Family here at Saint Andrew in Riverside.

Forgive me,
Presbytera Catherine

If you are too strict with children - they will reject whatever you are strict about in their teens and youthful adulthood.
This is especially true of Religion.

when people are impatient with children - it bothers me - especially in Divine Liturgy. No wonder all you ever see in some churches are old people.

The advice on this particular topic in this forum is excellent.

Look at the Greek Orthodox Church (or the Serbian Orthodox )
I've seen men go outside for a smoke during Divine Liturgy coming and going as the vital parts of the LIturgy are prayed.
I would not do this nor do I admire it - but our Orthodox brethren do it all the time - the men (real men - tough, steel working, miners - hard men --- we allowed to be themselves at the Liturgy). The children allowed to run and play in the NAVE! A living breathing HUMANITY - alive with people just born, some young, some old, some dying. Why stifle the vibrancy?

On the other hand - the parents should be aware - and respectful of others as pointed out in this forum.

I believe the ancient Divine Liturgy was celebrated this way also.

Why do you think they chant "WISDOM - BE ATTENTIVE" ?

We always stood toward the front of the church, and when our children were born, we stayed in the front of the church. **gasp** It turns out I had very little need to discipline the children in church, because they could see what was happening. Even as rugrats and toddlers, they were riveted by the action around them. If you are in the back or middle of the congregation, where your child can't see anything but the backs of the adults in front of him, he'll get bored quickly. I did often have to leave the church with one or another for some portion of the liturgy -- little ones do need diaper changes and bottles and whatnot. It was fraying on my nerves, but it is a season of life that passes quickly.

When your wife is not around, does your son respond to you, allow you to comfort him? If so, perhaps you and he could be in a different part of the congregation from her -- out of sight, out of mind. Then your wife could get a bit of a rest while absorbing the prayers, and your son could get used to not turning to her during liturgy.

Thanks for all the wonderful posts!

When my son and I are alone, he still asks for mommy and wants to move around the home looking for her. Either that or he needs to be distracted enough with toys, TV, or food. We let him have his food and drink in church (and we clean up afterwards) but what we don't let him have is toys. He also has religious board books (like Baby's First Bible) but he has grown tired of them.

He knows prayers and says "Amen" when we say his prayers for him. But he associates prayer more with meal time (sometimes we forget to say prayer before eating and he goes, "pray! pray" and puts his right hand on his forehead. He can't quite do the Sign of the Cross but he know that it begins with high right hand on his forehead), and also with sleep time. He knows how to kiss the icons on the tetrapod. Just 2 Sundays ago during Homily he dashed down the middle towards the tetrapod exclaiming loudly, "kiss! kiss!" Of course I had to signal to my wife that it wasn't the proper time to do it and I let him kiss the icons after the priest finished his Homily and went back behind the iconostasis.

He's a great kid and has lots of energy and loves to explore. He's smart but ever curious. I don't think I can pin him down on our pew (we do have pews).



Neil, the perspective from another father is great, thank you for sharing. Being a father is part of our theology, through the father the family is blessed by God. So being a good father is important.

I have 5 children, ages 1,3,5,7 and 9. Only the 9 year old consistently behaves in an "adult" fashion. I sympathize with your wife. I am often overwhelmed and stressed out in church. I frequently laugh to myself when we sing "now set aside all earthly cares", as I'm trying to hold the baby (who doesn't want Daddy at all), while fishing the three year old out from under the pew. (See, I lost focus for two seconds while nursing the baby, and the three year old found her way under the pew that quickly! Yes, yes, I know... get rid of the pews!) The younger three want only me. If I try to walk outside with the fussy baby for a few minutes, they always follow me. We do have a cry room, which is a nice retreat, but we always come back as soon as we can. Sometimes, I just take somebody outside for a quick walk, a drink of water, or a change of scenery. We have a ton of little ones in our church, so there is always some mom or dad heading in or out the revolving door in the back. We usually give each other sympathetic looks as we pass in the church. I've recently started sending 7 year old out with the 3 year old occasionally. I once asked Father if the noise bothered him. He just said he assumes it is one of his kids crying. (His wife is my hero, by the way, managing 5 little ones of her own, by herself, week after week.)

So, I do have a point, Constantine... This is our season in life. Our children belong in church, especially the little ones. We might not think they are getting anything out of it, but they are taking it all in and it is forming them and becoming a part of who they are. This is a season in life, and it will pass. I remind myself of that weekly. For two weeks in a row, I have not had to take a child out during liturgy and it has been good. I'm still distracted, and I wish I had my husbands masculine focus and ability to block it all out and pray in spite of it all.

I appreciate the attitudes that I have seen in this forum regarding children. Our parish is very tolerant of the normal noises of little ones, but I have been on both ends of the spectrum. A few months ago, my husband took our then 2 year old to daily mass at a local Roman parish. She wasn't particularly well behaved that day, and an old woman approached him afterward just to tell him that he needed to leave her home. I've been approached after Mass at that same church and told that I need to be in the cry room all the time, as it is disrespectful to others to have to cross over them to take my children out of the church. (They were actually really good that day!) I really think that old ladies forget what it was like, because they are all convinced that their children never were rambunctious in church, and certainly never misbehaved, ever. And if they did, they were quelled with a simple look. Always.

God Bless you and your wife in your continued efforts to raise your children in the church. It will make a difference in the end. If she really needs the opportunity to pray and focus occasionally, maybe you can try her suggestion once or twice a month, but definitely don't leave your child out of church all the time at this stage of his life. He belongs there, every bit as much as you or I.

I think that's adorable and wonderful that your son wanted to kiss the icons! Our priest's little 4 year old daughter sometimes runs out to give him a hug during the processions.

I don't know of any Roman parishes that put the kids in CCD during Mass. Maybe it is common in other parts of the country, but out here it is pretty well expected that children belong in the Mass. CCD is usually on a weekday afternoon, or sometimes on Sunday between Masses.

There is the Liturgy of the Word for Children where kids go into the parish hall during the readings and homily and they do age appropriate activity related to the readings (coloring an image taken from the Gospel, or an age-appropriate reading of the Gospel). Then they come back for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The parish we were in before becoming Melkite used to dismiss the children immediately after the opening song for Sunday School. They would return right after the homily. Not only did the children miss the Liturgy of the Word, but so did their teachers. On the other hand, the priest in this particular parish was not a very good homilist, so they didn't miss too much.

I'd rather colour pictures in the parish hall than sit through the ordinary form of the Mass.